HD vinyl

[pucho812]

Not sure what I think about this.

https://www.theverge.com/circuitbreaker/2018/4/12/17230578/high-definition-vinyl-record-playing-time-audio

 

[JohnRoberts]

High definition vinyl sounds like an improved buggy whip.  :

That said vinyl sales are climbing wrt downloads...  I am still not motivated to dust off my old phono preamp designs.

JR

 

[Gold]

Not sure what I think about this.

I know what I think about it. They came up with a great idea. Too bad they never researched whether it would work or is necessary. It won't work and is not necessary. The problems with vinyl are almost all on the playback side. If you "improve" the cutting side it will make playback worse, not better.

 

[bluebird]

I know what I think about it. They came up with a great idea. Too bad they never researched whether it would work or is necessary. It won't work and is not necessary. The problems with vinyl are almost all on the playback side. If you "improve" the cutting side it will make playback worse, not better.

I don't know, sounds pretty cool to me. If it works at all, completely eliminating the cutting lathe, lacquers, and plating process seems like a good move. You can't fight how much time an money that will save...

My work is probably 60% cutting and 40% digital mastering. So this kind of scares the sh*t out of me. Anyone want to buy a Neumann VMS66?  :-X


Edit:
But wait, our saving grace might be the audiophools who demand the "old" process because of how "real" it sounds compared to the digitally produced lazer plate crap.
So now I can charge DOUBLE for my services!!!

 

[Gold]

It sounds like it's totally unnecessary to listen to the audio. It's a totally automated process where the only way to check anything or get a sense of how it's cutting is after it's done. Great idea!

 

[MagnetoSound]

I like vinyl a lot, partly because of it's historic associations but not least because it is an attractive physical medium that is still saleable.

I struggle with those who believe it is a purist analogue delivery medium, though. For the past two or three decades I have not come across a cutting room that did not employ digital delay of the audio to the cutterhead during transfer from tape.

Regardless of whether the material originates from digital sources, it seems it is now impossible to take a quarter-inch master to be cut without this digital conversion process. Now, I understand why this is done, and, arguably, you do get a better chance of an efficient and problem-free cut with the safeguard that this delay provides, in giving the lathe time to adjust before loud passages, etc.

But, since many consumers still believe that vinyl = analogue, it is hard not feel they are being duped. It's not enough of a concern to prevent me from cutting records altogether, but it's enough that I feel rather shallow about it.

I know the audiophools probably deserve it, but this feels more like a cost-cutting move combined with a marketing scam than simply a way to make a better record. Time will tell, I suppose.

 

[desol]

I prefer vinyl over any other non-computer medium because of the artwork and the lyrics on the inner sleeve. Also, vinyl promotes the old fashioned sweet audio system...amp's, big speakers, etc. I hate the fact that one's music system is now squeezed in it's entirety into a computer based format. Hence apple earbuds, downloading, cheap computer speakers and all the other atrocities that ruined(cheapified) music from what it was.

If they improve the old way with a bit of the new, I have no issue with that. I still prefer the old way of experiencing music much better. I want big speakers, nice system, etc to listen. And a turntable too with cool artwork.

 

[emrr]

It sounds like it's totally unnecessary to listen to the audio. It's a totally automated process where the only way to check anything or get a sense of how it's cutting is after it's done. Great idea!

Well that sounds like a no-go.

 

[Gold]

I cut directly from tape. I have three Studer A80VU Pre’s. One set up for 1/4” another for 1/2” and a custom 1” 2tr.  I also have a Telefunken M15 preview deck. 

I’m not the only one. That said I’m not a purist. I like listening to records. It doesn’t matter to me the technical details of the source material. I doubt it matters that much to a lot of people buying records.

 

[MagnetoSound]

I cut directly from tape. I have three Studer A80VU Pre’s. One set up for 1/4” another for 1/2” and a custom 1” 2tr.  I also have a Telefunken M15 preview deck.

I'm not the only one.

That's great to hear, Paul. I suspect the US is a little better served in this respect than London.

That said I’m not a purist. I like listening to records. It doesn’t matter to me the technical details of the source material. I doubt it matters that much to a lot of people buying records.

I think you're right. The purist market aside, vinyls are vinyls it seems.

I still prefer the old way of experiencing music much better. I want big speakers, nice system, etc to listen. And a turntable too with cool artwork.

Same, of course.

 

[bluebird]

I struggle with those who believe it is a purist analogue delivery medium, though. For the past two or three decades I have not come across a cutting room that did not employ digital delay of the audio to the cutterhead during transfer from tape.

yep and the delays they were using at first where pretty terrible at that. early 16bit jobs.

I cut directly from tape. I have three Studer A80VU Pre’s. One set up for 1/4” another for 1/2” and a custom 1” 2tr.  I also have a Telefunken M15 preview deck. 
I’m not the only one.

Yes I also have a Studer deck with preview and program heads. Cool little pulley system to change the delay time for the different speeds. I have 1/4" heads and 1/2" heads.
I do think most of the major cutting houses over here had the Studer's at that time, but there were definitely a lot of digital delays out there too.

Even with the ability to be totally analog I prefer to get the tape into pro tools before I cut. I really believe the end result is sonically better on the record. I can use plug in filters, low end crossovers, precision EQ. So much more powerful that outboard analog stuff.

Funny story, a while back I cut the" Mott The Hoople - Complete Atlantic Studio Albums" 4 LP box set  for Rhino. Couple months later I got an email from a guy raving about how good it sounded and how he could tell I used the original analog sources yadda yadda.
Hoping this doesn't get me in trouble... it was not analog sources. It was a grab bag of digital files from all over the galaxy. I spent two days EQ'ing, de noising, level matching, even used a little compression and limiting on a few songs. I worked really hard on providing the best product I could for fans willing to pay an arm and a leg for the set. I couldn't have come close to what I did If I had to do that with analog sources, not even thinking about the tape op time it would have taken to patch all that stuff together.

I think the best vinyl comes from a mixture of technologies and a talented engineer who knows how to use what when...

 

[JohnRoberts]

Hoping this doesn't get me in trouble... it was not analog sources. It was a grab bag of digital files from all over the galaxy. I spent two days EQ'ing, de noising, level matching, even used a little compression and limiting on a few songs. I worked really hard on providing the best product I could for fans willing to pay an arm and a leg for the set. I couldn't have come close to what I did If I had to do that with analog sources, not even thinking about the tape op time it would have taken to patch all that stuff together.

shhhh  don't spoil his mojo...

I recall last century listening to audiophools complaining about how switches degrade audio. Apparently they've never seen a recording console. 

I think the best vinyl comes from a mixture of technologies and a talented engineer who knows how to use what when...

The best (anything) comes from talent and appropriate use of technology.

It can be a little too easy to become focussed on one to the detriment of the other. The newest and oldest gadgets should both be approached with caution.

JR

 

[Gold]

yep and the delays they were using at first where pretty terrible at that. early 16bit jobs.

The delay Studer sold with the A820 was 14 bit. It sounded good.  They never made a preview version of the A820.

 

[chefducuisine]

I like the idea because it saves a few steps (especially the galvanic ones) and you get the stamper directly.
A higher quality can be the result - we'll see.


The cutting rooms I know don't use their tape machines anymore as everything comes in as stereo WAV files nowadays. Because of this they do the delay in the DAW already and simply put them to a separate pair of outputs that go
a) to the feeder that moves the horizontal axis.
b) to the amps of the cutting head.


Interesting:
A few weeks ago there was a vinyl special on 'Sendung mit der Maus' (German TV format for children).
For this they visited 'Rand Muzik' to explain the production process for vinyl (including cutting on a Neumann  ).
Interestingly their workflow is based around a Logic DAW. Unfortunately it is available in German language only but from the video alone you get the idea:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=3&v=UU3IQ9M37MI
and
http://www.randmuzik.de/english/

 

[bluebird]

The cutting rooms I know don't use their tape machines anymore as everything comes in as stereo WAV files nowadays. Because of this they do the delay in the DAW already and simply put them to a separate pair of outputs that go
a) to the feeder that moves the horizontal axis.
b) to the amps of the cutting head.

Yup, that how its done. But there are plenty of purists with money out there, who want it done the old fashioned way. And its nice to have the real deal equipment be able to accommodate that type of clientele. Its also a challenge, and if the project is good, can be very satisfying when completed.

The delay Studer sold with the A820 was 14 bit. It sounded good.  They never made a preview version of the A820.

Wow never knew that! I wonder how hard it would be to mod an A820 to accept the preview/program pully head stack? It wouldn't be easy. But the A820 is so solid transport wise. The A80 always feels like an old man. Slow and finicky.

I recall last century listening to audiophools complaining about how switches degrade audio. Apparently they've never seen a recording console.

Lol, we have to do a sonic bath cleaning to all the modules on the 80 series Neve every couple of years or the switches (and pots)  get really bad. If an important client was coming in, we would be put on "button pushing duty" Channel by channel manually pushing every button and exorcising every knob  while listening to a 1K tone. I put a lot of thought into a hand held machine that pushes the console buttons repeatedly really fast.  Something like a tattoo machine with a finger on it

 

[JohnRoberts]

Lol, we have to do a sonic bath cleaning to all the modules on the 80 series Neve every couple of years or the switches (and pots)  get really bad. If an important client was coming in, we would be put on "button pushing duty" Channel by channel manually pushing every button and exorcising every knob  while listening to a 1K tone. I put a lot of thought into a hand held machine that pushes the console buttons repeatedly really fast.  Something like a tattoo machine with a finger on it

Not obvious but QA for new consoles requires pushing all the buttons, twisting all the controls,  and listening... It would take way too much time to QA test any reasonable sized console, and I was constantly getting beat up over that You gotta do what you gotta do.  It's always cheaper to find flaws before they leave the factory.

JR

 

[abbey road d enfer]

That said vinyl sales are climbing wrt downloads...  I am still not motivated to dust off my old phono preamp designs.

A recent survey showed that a significant proportion of vinyl buyers don't have a turntable. 

 

[pucho812]

A recent survey showed that a significant proportion of vinyl buyers don't have a turntable. 

A  technicality

 

[benb]

Lol, we have to do a sonic bath cleaning to all the modules on the 80 series Neve every couple of years or the switches (and pots)  get really bad. If an important client was coming in, we would be put on "button pushing duty" Channel by channel manually pushing every button and exorcising every knob  while listening to a 1K tone. I put a lot of thought into a hand held machine that pushes the console buttons repeatedly really fast.  Something like a tattoo machine with a finger on it

That reminds me of this machine for pianos:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-Xvf_q941Q

 

[Gold]

Wow never knew that! I wonder how hard it would be to mod an A820 to accept the preview/program pully head stack? It wouldn't be easy. But the A820 is so solid transport wise. The A80 always feels like an old man. Slow and finicky.

I'd like to know what the thought process was behind not making a an A820 preview deck. Designing a DDL from the ground up in approximately 1985  sounds like it would have required quite a large R&D budget. Studer had a lot of tape transport mechanical expertise. Did they think it was easier to design a DDL? Did they think they couldn't match the performance of the stock A820?Maybe some promo literature would have a clue?