Inexpensive One-Off Board Houses?

[thestudio]

NewYorkDave,


"I'd rather keep the money and the work here in the States, rather than contribute--even in such a small way--to the continued erosion of our electronics industry. But hey, that's just me.. " NewYorkDave


Then the USA better change their prices and the way they do business instead of charging extremely high prices for manufacturing. That?s why DIY is becoming enormous and people are learning to build and design on there own. Take a look at Neve who charges $4000 for 1081, which is not there design and 20 plus years old and we all know what it cost for parts and the remaining is labor because there?s not much R&D, Brent Averill who charges $550 for an Api clone and now without an original 2520? Look at Avalon who manufactures in China and still charges ridiculous prices on his items?the list goes on and on?Look in your own back yard??..Are you tech? Do you or someone you know charge $90 an hour for a service tech?

It comes down to money...... and it seems to me people are trying to make or save more of it?.
:green: :guinness:

 

[tk@halmi]

Then the USA better change their prices and the way they do business instead of charging extremely high prices for manufacturing

Well the cost of doing business ain't exactly peanuts in the US. High wages, high priced business space, lots of money for insurances, corporation fees, taxes on taxes on taxes, environmental restrictions, etc. In China you can just let all manufacturing waste into the local streams, pay a dime an hour for labor, dribble a little money to local dignitaries and get free land from the government to build manufacturing facilities. That is the where we want to head. :thumb:

 

[soundguy]

Studio-

I dont know what your background is but if you think $550 for a BA amplifier is too much money and he's making a ridiculous profit, Im very much looking forward to your new startup company as I'd like to buy your products which you seem to think you can offer, in mass, cheaper. If anything, it was probably CHEAPER for BA to make those amps with real 2520's, its not like the new ones have a chip or some other opamp that fell out of the sky, a dude had to first design it, then build it, etc. I personally couldnt be bothered to go through the trouble of building something like that to sell it for just $500. My time is worth something.

Are you building the 1081 project? The parts cost is enormous on that project. Have you ever wired the 3 tier gain switch? That only took me 2 hours to physically do it after staring at a schematic for DAYS trying to undertand it. When you finish yours, keep track of the hours you worked on it, even just the labor, add up your parts cost and add $25/hr for your time and see if you hit close to $4k. I bet you do.

Ive never ever not one single time saved a penny building anything myself. If I was unemployed, perhaps, but Ive got to not schedule work to build stuff, time is money. Im actually continually amazed that a company as small as BA can stay in business for the amount of labor that is involved with most of the projects that company offers. I highly doubt anyone there is getting rich by any stretch of the imagination.

I agree with you that it comes down to money, so you cant blame people for having a profit margin, whatever that is in their business model. American labor is expensive, so you are gonna pay for it... Im the perfect example of that, people have asked me time and time again to rack stuff for them and I just cant take the work, it takes me way too long to do it and for me to charge any kind of reasonable rate for the job on top of parts, Id wind up having to charge $5 or $6 an hour and there's no way Im playing with mains voltages and the possibility of death for less money than I can make at starbucks pouring coffee.

I dont mind paying a manufacturer a fair sum of money if it saves me the time and trouble of not having to figure out how to build something and then source all the parts and then build it and then trouble shoot my mistakes to make it work. AND manufacturers guarantee their work... I look at paying all that money for a prefab box as paying for a service which is much more realistic than looking at the parts cost of a box and feeling like you are being taken advantage of.

When you can convince my landlord and utilities companies to give me a break on my bills scaled in reference to what the world THINKS I should make instead of what I NEED to make to break even every month, then I'll consider the $5/hr racking jobs.

dave

 

[Ethan]

America...Land of the lawsuit.

There is a lot of time and money (beyond just parts) that goes into releasing a commercial product (it's easy for a DIY'er to lose sight of this). I'm sure any one of the manufacturers that frequents the forum could comfirm this. Not to mention the personal labor-I've had the chance to look over the shoulder of a designer agonizing over every bit of electrical and mechanical nook and cranny, scrutinizing everything with obsessive compulsive detail.

Then of course you have marketing costs--ain't cheap to get a 1/4 page ad in MIX or any other publication. Trade conventions. CE certification testing (I've heard somewhere around $10,000 per product). Then of course you have to consider that professional audio is a relatively tiny market. Yes, some "vintage" gear is way over priced. However, I've often wondered how some boutique manufacturers even make a living selling only a few hundred units if they're lucky. The little guys that make great gear aren't shipping them out by the thousands.

Be kind to the guys that work in this industry that we all love. Everyone has to make a living. Making judgements on what a product should cost just on the cost of parts is akin to one expecting to go to work only to be paid enough to cover their expenses to get to work.

-E

 

[thestudio]

Well the cost of doing business ain't exactly peanuts in the US. High wages, high priced business space, lots of money for insurances, corporation fees, taxes on taxes on taxes, environmental restrictions, etc

Who said it was lower? Yep, high wages especially for CEO's , Yep, taxes ....I'm one that doesn't need Government to do everything for me......that's why I said USA has to changed or companies will keep making pcb's in China.

In China you can just let all manufacturing waste into the local streams, pay a dime an hour for labor, dribble a little money to local dignitaries and get free land from the government to build manufacturing facilities. That is the where we want to head.

It's seems to me that are own rivers, streams, lakes... have waste dump into them by manufactures to cut cost which are glossed over by the USA government and I'm not happy about those actions. All I'm saying is that you can't have it both ways..... :guinness:

 

[Crusty2]

...

 

[thestudio]

soundguy,

Maybe that was a little to far saying ridiculous profit on BA, but it was cheaper when he was using 2520's since he collected them over many years. Now, I would say it cost about half since there producing a BA amp and having transformers made for those pre-amps. I believe Brent has many things in the fire and BA is just one of them..... :green:

On the 1081 your in another world and to say I would hit $4000 is nutz :roll:

I am tracking my hours and parts which I always do on all projects which is why we agree on time is money. But, $4000 for a 1081, 1073, 1084 is just silly :shock:

profit margin

It depends on how big of a profit margin and that's my bitch
You mention working on wiring gear up for studio and I would agree that $6-10 wouldn't cut it but maybe $25. But, there's people who charge $90 and up for wiring or fixing studio type equipment :shock: Do you think that's a little high :?: What do you think a going rate for say working on a broken Neve 1081 :green: anyone :?:

Cheers :guinness:

 

[CJ]

Just curious, where is the Chef getting his boards because they sure are cool!
Nice silkscreen info to!
cj

 

[NewYorkDave]

[quote author="Crusty2"]avoid China and keep it as local as possible. A good relationship with a boardhouse well pay off down the road. [/quote]

This is true of so many things. You can't beat the service you'll get from a local business with whom you have a relationship. I used to be friends with a guy who was starting up a small electronics company on the side, a company which is now a major player in the guitar amp parts business. He had all his PCB fab and related work done by a company located right in his hometown. He could walk in the door and they knew him by name, and they would be glad to do favors for him, since he was a regular and valued customer. You're not going to get that from China.

Granted, if you're just looking to have a couple of PCBs made for a particular project, the idea of a "relationship" with a board house probably doesn't mean much to you. But speaking only for myself, I usually try to be mindful of where my money is going and whom it's going to benefit. I will gladly spend a little more money at a local store rather than going to a Wal-Mart to save a buck. And I like the idea of spending money in my own community where it will benefit the people of my community and, by extension, me. If you extend this idea to my country, which is really my community as well but on a larger scale, then perhaps I don't seem like such a crank when I say that I'd rather have my boards made here, even if it costs a little more.

 

[tk@halmi]

[quote author="thestudio"]
On the 1081 your in another world and to say I would hit $4000 is nutz :roll:
[/quote]

Don't buy it. In a free market when you price yourself out of the market you lose out on sales. Nobody is forcing you to pay that much for it. Buy the cheaper good sounding stuff. There have been many beautiful and successful pieces of music recorded without using a 1081 or other pricey gear.

Cheers,
Tamas

 

[alk509]

[quote author="thestudio"] [...] But, $4000 for a 1081, 1073, 1084 is just silly [...] [/quote]

[quote author="thestudio"] [...] It depends on how big of a profit margin and that's my bitch [...][/quote]

[quote author="thestudio"] [...] there's people who charge $90 and up for wiring or fixing studio type equipment [...] [/quote]

I must admit that every time I hear somebody make these kinds of comments, I'm reminded of the value of a good, well-rounded college education that includes a course in microeconomics...

The reason people can have huge profit margins and charge $4000 for a 1081 or $90/hour for soldering some wires is that there are people willing to pay those prices. Why would I want to sell you some 2 cent piece of gear I made for $5, when some guy down the road will pay $10? If I did, I'd be losing money!

Supply and demand, son. You don't set your price by adding up your costs plus some percentage, you set it according to what the market will bear and a whole bunch of other ****.

......

So, there! You commie *******!

Just kidding! :green:

Peace,
Al.

 

[soundguy]

[quote author="thestudio"]On the 1081 your in another world and to say I would hit $4000 is nutz[/quote]


well, this really all depends on what your time is worth, and that is really the crux of this conversation on many levels. Taking brent averill and those types out of this for a second, as mentioned eariler, the sale price of a unit has to cover ALL the operating costs of a business, all the overhead for the physical facility, ALL the parts and fabrication costs and ALL the marketing. I agree with you that $4k for a 1081 is perhaps more than I would pay but after you finish building yours you'll have a better perspective on what it is worth to you. I know it will take me hundreds (thats plural) to build two of the ******* things, so for me, with that knowledge, as much as it hurts to pay the dough, if I NEEDED it on a session, I could justify paying it.

The other nice thing about buying prefab gear, wether you want to admit this to yourself or not, is that the reputation of the manufacturer is a large portion of the price you are paying. Yes, you can DIY your own 1272 for much less than what it will cost you to buy a real one, but your DIY 1272 is more or less worthless on the used market where the NEVE 1272 will only increase in value. I bought several 1272's for a mixer project just a few years ago and for how much the price has skyrocketed in the last few years, in todays market I wouldnt have ever thought of buying original neve parts. So, if you must, all the "extra" money you are spending on a prefab product from a manufacturer with a rep you can view as insurance on your resale and all the money you are "saving" on your DIY you can write off as a total loss when you try to sell it. Ever try to sell your DIY?

Another thing, for those with commercial studios, I have pretty specific clients that rent my place, most people want product recognition when they go into a studio, seeing a rack full of par metal boxes doesnt inspire confidence in a certain population of clients, namely those that have money to spend... So, again, product recognition will help you with the resale AND get your room booked, neve knows this and thats why THEIR 1081 is $4K and people pay it, and gladly. I cant build one cheaper when I factor my time, not by a long shot. Maybe in ten or fifteen years when I actually understand what Im doing, but for now...

Ultimately, any measure of savings all comes down to what your time is worth and reflecting on the resale market is a huge factor. I flip gear often enough to know that if Im gonna build it myself, I basically just bought it forever with little chance of recovering the parts value of the box, my labor gets flushed down the toilet when I go to resell it, IF I can resell it. I can possibly save a few bucks on a DIY 1073 but in the long run, I'll MAKE money if I buy a real one, no matter how much it costs today. Its all perspective.

dave

 

[alk509]

[quote author="Crusty2"]I'm with NewYorkDave; avoid China and keep it as local as possible.[/quote]

Agreed!!!

I bought some rack enclosures from these Taiwanese mofos... BIG MISTAKE! There manufacturing tolerances are probably about 1/4", some of the screw holes weren't threaded right, parts were missing, etc., etc. Then Miguel, my friendly neighborhood metal-worker made me this beauty out of a BUD box. Happy times! :thumb:

Happy times...

Peace,
Al.

 

[thestudio]

alk509,

You missed the point, which you maybe missed in your well-rounded college education. The point was soon the supply is not going to have demand from those willing people. Comprehend? Well aware of companies choosing price based on market demand would that explain Neve trying to shut down certain avenues for certain components....Comprehend?


Soundguy,

That?s too bad that you have clients that use their eyes instead of there ears. The advertising clients I work with only know cost; big consoles and tons rack gear and final product. As long as it sounds good to there liken then all is good. I have three La2a clones, which don?t have Teletronics written on front but have Ha100x/A24 transformers, which sound great, and clients who book time love using them should I tell them that there clones?
:guinness:

 

[alk509]

[quote author="thestudio"]The point was soon the supply is not going to have demand from those willing people. Comprehend?[/quote]

:roll:
Says who? Have AMS-Neve or Oram or SSL sales been droping? Have their prices been going down? Price-setting is a dynamic process, and that's the lesson learned in economics 101 that I was talikng about. Those "willing people", as you call them, are an ever-changing segment of the audio market and when enough of them drop their demand for 1081's, Neve is forced to drop their prices, which in turn attracts a whole bunch of people with smaller wallets that couldn't have afforded their **** before. If Neve prices don't go down (and the company doesn't file for chapter 11) it can only mean that demand is relatively steady. Comprende?

[quote author="thestudio"]That?s too bad that you have clients that use their eyes instead of there ears. The advertising clients I work with only know cost [...][/quote]

While it's true that advertising clients tend to be more level-headed, try convincing a record producer or band-leader with a big head that they don't need a "insert name of flashy new piece of gear here", and you're in for a fun time...

I'm not trying to be facetious here, but you should consider yourself lucky if your clients hire you more for your ears than for your gear

 

[thestudio]

alk509,

You?re not seeing the whole picture?.. have you ever spoken with a person in the Neve parts or tech department or are you talking to people in sales, which always portray roses. I while ago I purchased some Neve V3 channels which were at an auction from a closing Neve warehouse I guess they just didn't need the space because of so many sales. Is that why Neve relieved some people from the company? Have you ever received disgruntled email from a Neve sales employee?

If Neve prices don't go down (and the company doesn't file for chapter 11) it can only mean that demand is relatively steady. Comprende?

That's some warp logic ....... :shock: But if your living in a bubble I guess it could be true. :roll:

Oh, Oram is not even in the league of Neve or SSL not even close.

try convincing a record producer or band-leader with a big head that they don't need a "insert name of flashy new piece of gear here", and you're in for a fun time

Most clients don't know because the equipment looks just like the original except for the name on the front and some ask about the difference I explain what's inside and they say "that's great"

We live in a different world were most people need to name drop and have the political correct equipment to survive. :sad:

Would you not purchase a Gyraf product because it didn't have your political correct name posted on front. Maybe you wouldn't but I would and I would also tell the clients to try and listen before they berate a piece. As I said before most have no idea because there interested in the cost and final product. :guinness:

 

[soundguy]

[quote author="thestudio"]That?s too bad that you have clients that use their eyes instead of there ears.[/quote]

I wouldnt say that this is too bad, its just the way that it is. Not every person that uses a recording studio has some kind of technical knowledge. A movie director, for instance, nine and a half times out of ten, is in charge of making a decision with a producer about which studio to use and is %100 ignorant of recording gear and the way things are "supposed" to sound by some concept made up by engineers of "using their ears". You can hardly blame the guy either, his goal in life is to direct actors, the producers goal in life is to organize a movie and they both are hiring an engineer to use his ears and make those decisions FOR THEM, they dont WANT to be involved on that level. For someone that truly has commercial advertising clients, this should come as no suprise to you. When you have a client like that, since they are paying for the engineers reputation and trusting him to make all the "use your ears" decisions himself, they basically have to decide to pick the studio to work out of SOMEHOW and if you dont think name recognition is it, Ive got a cool brick wall you can have this debate with. If it wasnt for name recorgnition PRO TOOLS wouldnt even be a thing today. Neumann STILL wouldnt be in business making crap mics. I can go on, I wont. Clients like that pick a place to work out of based upon how clean the lobby is, how comfortable the chair is in the control room and wether or not you have the things they have been told you should have in a studio.

When you dont label boxes (like I dont) and have the mad scientist rack of DIY you are immediately isolating these types of clients as when they walk in, there is not a single piece of gear that they have ever seen before and you MUST take the time to comfort them. This can go both ways. Most people I work with come here because its unique. Someone wanting a comfortable environment, however (we used X gear at Y studio, so you'll need to have th same thing to match that setup in the next scene) is not going to have it.

Thats just life. If you have clients that "use their (or there as you put it) ears" you are either working with other engineers or musicians and are very very lucky as those people are not the generally the types that can pay $300/hr for a room.

dave

 

[NewYorkDave]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5928737/

 

[thestudio]

NewYorkDave,

That's been known for a long time it's even been on 60 minutes what's that have to do with a company sending pcb orders to a company to duplicate? When you send an order they have no idea what it is.......

soundguy,

Well aware on how advertise people think and work, how recording companies work and how your local band works.......

My studio is not all clone or custom equipment I have the Neve, API, BA, Sony, Eventide, Avalon, Neumann, AKG... names. The clones are identical looking just don't have the name on front just like I mentioned before I have three La2a clones that are identical and more original then a new La2a (because I spent the time years ago buy many Ha100x/A24) and the only difference is there's no name on front.