Irish government under fire again from civil liberties organisations

[Tubetec]

Today the Irish government seeks to bring in drastic new laws which will result in a two tier society . In the rush to get hospitality ,pubs and hotels open a law stating that people need either to show proof of vaccination or proof of previous covid infection before being served food or drink indoors . Typically on previous ocassions a sunset clause has been built into covid regulations ,so that after a certain amount of time the the emergency powers expire , no such plan has been included in the bill coming before parliment today . I know one local pub owner , closed now for over a year and a half , because he simply refuses to 'police' his customers in this manner . Were great here at patting ourselves on the back for bringing in legislation promissing equality to flavour of the month pressure groups , now they want to bring in these laws which litterally divide scoiety down the middle , roughly 50% of the adult population have now had at least one dose of vaccine , the people who havent been vaccinated for whatever reason are about to be made second class citizens .

 

[living sounds]

What alternative do you propose?

 

[Tubetec]

The proposed new laws give an exemption to people under 18 dining out with parents as the vaccine hasnt been cleared for usage in people in that age group . What the stupid law will do is make everyone between 18-35 or those who havent or cant get a vaccination second class citizens , thats an extremely dangerous precident . Another issue with the proposed laws is that coersive force is being used to make people divulge personal medical data to go about their daily lives .

Our independant data protection comissioner has already sent out signals of possible issues arising from said new laws , meanwhile the Irish council for civil liberties is planning a massive case on the public behalf because of the manner in which our data is being used by online marketing(googles FB twitter as well as service providers ) . A seperate issue yes ,but related as I believe governments world wide have torn a page out of the social medias bait and switch book . I guess people are duped into signing up without truely knowing what it entails , thats a very shady practise but not as bad as government use of coersion to coralle a segment of the population .

We best keep indoor eating and drinking off the cards for another while rather than creating a system which is fundamentally inequitable . When I see the way some of the newer politicians opperate I cant help but to think they spent time playing Civilisation or Sim city years ago . Many of these guys are so far removed the lives of ordinary people they fail miserably to consider the effects or possible downsides of their policies on less well off people .
Ive heard it said the covid virus is indescriminate , but in reality if you happen to belong to certain marginalised groups in our society you have a much higher chance of catching it , its not a level playing field at all .

 

[user 37518]

Today the Irish government seeks to bring in drastic new laws which will result in a two tier society . In the rush to get hospitality ,pubs and hotels open a law stating that people need either to show proof of vaccination or proof of previous covid infection before being served food or drink indoors . Typically on previous ocassions a sunset clause has been built into covid regulations ,so that after a certain amount of time the the emergency powers expire , no such plan has been included in the bill coming before parliment today . I know one local pub owner , closed now for over a year and a half , because he simply refuses to 'police' his customers in this manner . Were great here at patting ourselves on the back for bringing in legislation promissing equality to flavour of the month pressure groups , now they want to bring in these laws which litterally divide scoiety down the middle , roughly 50% of the adult population have now had at least one dose of vaccine , the people who havent been vaccinated for whatever reason are about to be made second class citizens .

Call me conspiranoic, but that is just the beginning, I read somewhere that ecofreaks loved the lockdown due to the reduction of carbon emissions, and they are now proposing to adopt the same policies for climate reasons, so a percentage of the population may have to remain in lockdown for a period of time, similar to what we have here in Mexico City since the 90s to reduce pollution, your car, depending on your licence plate last number, your car is not allowed to transit on a specific day of the week, eventually a system got imposed in which every six months they test your emissions and they give you a tag that either allows you to take your car out daily or not.

So I wouldn't be surprised if a law based on your social security number or something similar allows you to leave your house only certain months or days of the week, aka curfew or house arrest.

Its all popullation control, I don't want to discuss the topic of abortion or wheter its right or wrong, but have you wondered why the Rockefeller's, The Soros Foundation, The Melinda Gates Foundation, The Biden Administration, and many others are "donating" billions in birth control, abortion and euthanasia specially in developing and underdeveloped countries? Do you think its just out of the goodness of their hearts? My best guess is that they want a small popullation and they want to keep all the resources, easier to keep the poor from reproducing than actually taking them out of poverty, easier to kill the elderly and diseased than to use funds from the state to keep them alive. Too many people means more water consumption, more carbon emissions, less fish in the sea, etc.. etc...

I heard, and maybe our friends from the Netherlands can chime in if this is true, but I heard that elders are fleeing the Netherlands for fear or being "euthanized", that there are actually ads in some places saying something like "Are you over 70? Have you considered not being a burden for your children and the state? consider assisted suicide"

Let me go get my tin foil hat and my flame suit

 

[PermO]

Netherlands here...

I don't see an exodus of the elderly happening here... also think most of the elderly don't have the money to flee the country.
You can't buy "Soilent Green" in the supermarket here.
I don't have TV for 25 years or so, so I don't know adds, but I can imagine a "Postbus51" (wich are government infomercials) add being on TV about active euthanesia, wich is a thing here.

You can't just call them to make an appointment to kill you,... it's not like that.
But some people with severe medical (or mental) conditions see no other way out, and if you have support from a medical specialist it is possible to take the way out.
The legal matters are probably very complicated, so there really has to be "a case" I don't think our government runs adds on TV saying "Hé, feeling old ? feeling bored ? don't be a burden and kill yourself !"

The way I know the elderly here is on electric bikes, going full throttle in places you defenitely shouldn't, big wide eyes in a state of confusion / apathy / shock that is never really clear to me... "what are they thinking ?"


...probably, they are trying to flee the country.

 

[user 37518]

Netherlands here...

I don't see an exodus of the elderly happening here... also think most of the elderly don't have the money to flee the country.
You can't buy "Soilent Green" in the supermarket here.
I don't have TV for 25 years or so, so I don't know adds, but I can imagine a "Postbus51" (wich are government infomercials) add being on TV about active euthanesia, wich is a thing here.

You can't just call them to make an appointment to kill you,... it's not like that.
But some people with severe medical (or mental) conditions see no other way out, and if you have support from a medical specialist it is possible to take the way out.
The legal matters are probably very complicated, so there really has to be "a case" I don't think our government runs adds on TV saying "Hé, feeling old ? feeling bored ? don't be a burden and kill yourself !"

The way I know the elderly here is on electric bikes, going full throttle in places you defenitely shouldn't, big wide eyes in a state of confusion / apathy / shock that is never really clear to me... "what are they thinking ?"


...probably, they are trying to flee the country.

thanks for your comment, no I don't think the ads are like in national TV, but rather in hospitals or clinics.

 

[rob_gould]

I heard, and maybe our friends from the Netherlands can chime in if this is true, but I heard that elders are fleeing the Netherlands for fear or being "euthanized", that there are actually ads in some places saying something like "Are you over 70? Have you considered not being a burden for your children and the state? consider assisted suicide"

Let me go get my tin foil hat and my flame suit

I don't think that's true. Where did you read or hear this?

As permo says, euthanasia is extraordinarily tightly controlled. Doctors who perform it can be charged with murder if the correct procedures are not followed.

The mother of someone I know applied for euthanasia because of late stage degenerative disease and their request was turned down.

https://www.government.nl/topics/eu...sted-suicide-and-non-resuscitation-on-request
This country has generous welfare support compared to many. Yes, Dutch people will argue that it's not as good as it used to be and that promises that were made historically are now being broken (state pension, for example), but on the whole, my feeling is that this is a country that looks after its old people.

 

[user 37518]

these are some euthanasia articles related to the Netherlands:

this is an old one:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/he...derly-people-carry-anti-euthanasia-cards.html
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-52367644

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-54538288

 

[JohnRoberts]

Not to veer, but what is the local sense about the international minimum tax rate negotiations.

Major western nations are trying to enforce a 15% minimum tax on large multinational corporations. Ireland is still at 12.5% and could lose revenue if it raised tax rates and lost that advantage.

JR

 

[PermO]

Oh lol, I think we have one of the most corrupt tax systems on the planet... big corporations don't pay taxes here, so many big corporations have their headquarters here...

Did you know the Roling Stones are a Dutch band ?

There's a good book on this, but it's in Dutch only "The tax paradise, why nobody pays taxes exept you"

 

[Tubetec]

Yeah we have an on paper tax rate of 12.5% here in Ireland , the reality though is that the big boys pay next to nothing , creative accounting you could call it , I'm not sure what the figures for Apple are , but they pay only a few % in tax on the earnings they syphon through this country every year , many of the other corporations do the same . Starbucks for some reason has never had to pay a cent in tax in Ireland . Theres a tradition in politics here of cosying up to big business, lucrative deals are struck behind the scenes , Ive heard it descibed as 'a bunch of pricks who look up to assholes' .

Bono shifted his accounts to Holland long ago , he did recieve quite a grumble of dissaproval from the ordinary public over it . I think he also took 100million euro stake in Facebook back when the company was in its infancy .
In more recent years he seems to have positioned himself like a government lobbyist on behalf of facebook .

I should dig up stats on what the top corporations pay here ,its a total piss-take ,but I'm in a bit of a lazy zone for numbers today . There was one scam the pharmaceutical sector pulled off where returned medications from customers to the pharmacy were sent back to the manufacturer , then redistrubuted to developing countries in donations , they were then able to claim back tax off anything they donated . Went on for years in the UK

On one hand Ireland could stand to make a lot of money from a manditory tax take from the corps , it could also stand to loose out alot from it , they've had it far too easy for far too long . The European courts judged against Apple in the settlment of an outstanding tax bill of 14 or so Billion , the Irish Government are afraid to take the money off them and are still refusing to collect on behalf of the public purse. Meanwhile were in the middle of a housing crisis and a pandemic , the cost of building materials has gone up 30-50% reducing the incentive and the profits of developers . Property prices in desirable areas here have seen a 25-30% rise in the last year , its on the boil now like a presure cooker again.

 

[ruffrecords]

Very much the same in the UK with the likes of Google, Amazon and Facebook. Amazon in particular is said to arrange things so that the outside the UK company that supplies goods to Amazon UK for sale, does so at a price that means Amazon in the UK appears to make no profit and hence pays no tax. So for example something that sells for £100in the UK would be purchased from a different Amazon company for £99. The company that apparently supplies the goods to Amazon UK just so happens be be in a tax haven.The fact that said goods never actually pass through the tax haven seems to be immaterial. It is all legal but completely immoral.

Cheers

Ian

 

[john12ax7]

I read what seemed like an interesting way to solve all the tax haven dilemmas. Companies would pay each country proportional to how much end users are in each country, that would make things like headquarters in the Caymans irrelevant. If 10% of Amazon goods were sold to Ireland, then Ireland gets 10% of the taxes.

 

[Soundwaves]

Is this the Southern Irish / EU or the Northern Irish / UK?

 

[JohnRoberts]

Is this the Southern Irish / EU or the Northern Irish / UK?

The one that is a separate country (EU)... They have offered the lowest international tax rate for years attracting major multinational company headquarters (like apple), and jobs (not steve).

JR

PS; UK's minimum tax rate is 19% still lower than US. Hungary is 9% but not Ireland...

 

[Tubetec]

Local coverage of the tax rate story here in Ireland ,
https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/politics/arid-40337699.html
In relation to the original point I made , there was some very ugly scenes in the Irish parliment last night while the governments new divisionistic legislation was enacted , there seems to be somewhat of a news blackout on the story today with no mention in my local paper , a local radio talk show host only brushed the subject and said he wouldnt discuss it any further and got quite a backlash over social media about it . I just checked another couple of the big newspaper/TV news websites here and zip all about the scenes that unfolded in the corridoors of power last night . The bill has two more stages to pass before it becomes active , one is a vote by the Senate the other is it needs to be signed in by the president , Michael D Higgins has always been a strong libertarian voice it will be interesting to see if he will call for a review of the constitutionality of the legislation like his heart is telling him to do , or will simply bite his tongue , tick the box and let the legislation through .

 

[Tubetec]

Irish President Michael D Higgins today signed into law the legislation allowing only vaccinated people( with the exception of accompanied children under 18) to be served food and drink indoors . For a man who was a most vociferious egalitarian and humanitarian his whole life its totally out of charachter . I just get the impression the mans free will has been corrupted , Ive heard rumours the President is , despite his marriage to a woman , in fact a closet homosexual . Wouldn't it be very easy for the dark powers that exist in this country to scrape up 'compromat' and just wave it above the mans head anytime he didnt click his heels on command .
If you were gay would find this man attractive ?

 

[cyrano]

A Belgian pamphlet from last century, published by our ministry of economic affairs with the aim to attract foreign companies, boasted how easy it was to evade taxes over here...

AFAIK, no other nation ever was so blatantly honest about it.

A more recent study found that only the USA and the UK carry more illegal money. Still, as a small country, Belgium is number three on that list. A big chunk of it is in the diamond trade. Next is prostitution, followed by drugs.

 

[Tubetec]

Its turned out the atorney general here has flagged possible issues of constitutionality with the new laws , he submitted a list of questions around a week ago to the department of health/dept of tourism and so far no reply . With the presidents role of signing in new laws , you would think he would have closely conferred with the A.G. on the matter , but he appears to either not have done that or perhaps even disregarded any advice he did get . So it seems a gulf has opened between between the cabinet and the man whos job it is to oversee the legality of pending legislation . For all his quirks and oddities , (Sir) Bob Geldoff and the Boomtown rats did hit the nail on the head with their tune Ba(nanana) republic way back in 1980 , some songs dont stand the test of time well , in this case his words are more poignant and relevant than ever .

 

[Tubetec]

Now the Irish president himself has finally signaled all is not well with the raft of new laws being rushed through , the sheer volume of material he's had to review in a short space of time is making it an impossible task .

One of the more disturbing aspects of these new laws is that a person suspected of having covid may be arbitrairily imprisoned or otherwise locked up for two weeks on the say so of a 'medical officer' before even a positive PCR test is required by the state . Even the precise meaning of ' medical officer ' in this context is vague .
The other antidemocratic point about all this legislation is the Dail or Irish parliment needs only a reduced number of votes to carry a motion during the covid . The so called 'vaccine dividend ' sighted by second in command Leo Varadkar looks more like take the carrot and eat it or you get beaten with the stick .
Despite the government passing laws recently that made the use of coersive force within a family situation a criminal offence , it seems the use of coersive force by government on the people doesnt count though. Its a badly mixed message to send out .

We've already seen the wide scale use of coersion in relation to the rollout of the government based ID cards in the last few years , Ive been shouting loudly about related data and privacy concerns a long time now and it seems that governments themselves are behaving more like the media corps with regards our data , in other words its their new cash cow . The lastest breach of the Health services database has led directly to people here being targeted by scam callers , an automated message initially tells the recipient their name and public services number has been compromised and has been used ilegally to access medical services , they then try and reel in the fish on the line and mine more data like bank account details etc . I'm unwilling to fill out the 50 or so data points required to get vaccinated as our government have more than adequately demonstrated they have made a complete bollox of our privacy . Varadkar waded into the media shitstorm last week saying Instagram was a 'sesspool' yet he positioned himself front/centre for photo ops when these data aggregators first came to town .

Another curious thing about the health service data breach here was , emergency legislation was rushed through parliment soon after it was discovered , despite the Health service never having admitted to the loss of anyones data , a new law was put into place making it a criminal offence for anyone to seek out or download or posses such data . Its the same bullshit as usual , the system covering its own ass on legal advice from civil servants who are supposedly working in the public interest .

The latest shitstorm in a tea cup here is due to the appointment of an American woman to the UN on Irelands behalf , Catherine Zappone . In her role as minister for children in the last government , she kept a tight lid on unethical vaccine trials in mother and baby homes ., the truth of what went on there is still being buried for fear of litigation and reputational damage to the companies involved , and now also because we might ill afford any further shaddows cast on vaccines.

All thats allowed through now on mainstream media is either fear mongering to try and sway the unvaccinated into getting the jab or overly positive estimates of the vaccination rate ,again to try and heard sheep . Win loose or draw , the politicians have a way out at the end of this ,' well su'r we were following the best scientific advice at the time ' .