is it possible ??

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eded

Member
Joined
Feb 8, 2006
Messages
15
there are many fine schematics for mic pre's.
but the parts counts are seemingly high. so i have a question.
is it :?: possible to build a mic pre out of a small number of parts operated by possibly 5volts dc (useing a chip regulator after a 9 volt battery). for example just two or three transistors. ive searched but i cant find anything.
 
Regulating 9V to 5V seems wasteful.

You can't make "Pro" line levels with 9V (much less 5V). +4dBu average can be over 11V peaks, you need a 22V power supply (hence the fashion for +/-15V= 30V total power).

At -10dBv interfacing you only need 5.6V power, which is practical on a 9V supply.

BUT: input levels to a mike amp range all over the place, from under 0.001V to over 1V. If you don't have a good gain control plan, the amp will overload.

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thank you prr.
are there any better solutions than the old 3904 /6 transistor types.
what about germanium transistors used in old consoles.
i wish i could build a nice few parts mic pre that sounded good with the old console sound.
minus ten is not a problem.
the application is very simple. mic pre out to a line level controller out to a sound card input. my grandmother used to have a saying, dont over complicate. and i am bearing this in mind.
thanks for replies.
 
Are there any better solutions than the old 2N3904/2N3906 transistor types?
Better in what sense?

What about germanium transistors used in old consoles?
I wouldn't call a germanium transistor to be "better" than a 2N3904/2N3906 for almost all applications. PRR's design has enough color, you don't need crappy transistors to get a bit of euphonic distortion.

If you want "the old sound", this very likely involves the use of transformers.

Samuel
 
The schematic PRR posted should work with most small signal transistors Si and not leaky Ge. Note that there are emitter Rs.

Whats wrong with 2n3904s and 2n3906s?

eded
First you say "ive searched but i cant find anything"

then you say"are there any better solutions than the old 3904 /6 transistor types"

Is that nice?
 
gee whizz gus my comment about 3904's/6's was not meant to upset.
if it came across like that, my utmost apologies. never my intention.
just trying to learn.
i'm thankfull for the input believe me.
if you good people feel they are fine thats ok by me.
the reason i asked is there are various low noise transistors by various manufacturers which ive read have low noise figures.
does anyone have any comments for example on the zetex line,
which according to what ive read are pretty indestructible or analog devices low noise part the mat series or nationals low noise parts
or motorola.
sorry if i upset anyone. this was not my intention.
i have much to learn. and my goal is purely to find an easy to build mic preamp with good gain that sounds nice with a minimal part count.
preferably which sounds better than some of the inexpensive mic pre's one sees in cheap mixers. and which will work with low impedence microphones.
i am very appreciative of any input.
 
I am not upset. The web limits interaction.

Transistors like the 3906,3904 will often have models for sim programs.

I think you can drop in all kinds of different Si transistor numbers or even a Ge and a Si

2n5088 2n5087 2n5089 2n2222a 2n2907?

I would build it with what you have and if it has to much noise change the transistors. When I looked at the circuit it look to me it will take all kinds of different numbers and work, Hfe >=100.
 
[quote author="northsiderap"]I just saw the 5v mic pre thread not too long ago...[/quote]
Here it is: http://www.groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=13316

For low parts, low current, and low price, you can't beat it with a stick!
 
> First you say "ive searched but i cant find anything" then you say"are there any better solutions than the old 3904 /6 transistor types" Is that nice?

He had a 2-cent spec ("mic pre out of a small number of parts ...just two or three transistors...") and I gave him a 2-cent answer. Throwing two (well-behaved) transistors together is chimp-work.

OK, that was too easy, so now he wants old-school sound, Ge transistors, low noise. I'm actually very shocked nobody has said "transformers" or "balanced input", or "Phantom power". To me, on-the-cheap, you just can't beat some of the <$99 mikes even if they do need phantom.

> what about germanium transistors used in old consoles.

They suck. They baffled me at the time. Most Ge amps were awful, only the best have escaped history's trash-bin. After I'd designed in Si a bit, I understood Ge: it is a lot like a bad Si transistor, Si is much easier to design with. BTW: early Ge transistors had Noise Figures in the audio band of 20dB and 30dB; you had to select them even for telephone amps. You didn't find transistors in consoles until NF got down near 4dB, and to actually get that took some very sharp pencils (no calculators!) and some tricks.

By 1970, Si transistors were "perfected". Seriously: you don't get a lot better than the good-old 3904, 4401, 2222 types, except in the most extreme problems. If you can't build it with a couple 2N2222, you probably can't be happy with LM394 or the THAT Corp arrays. Noise may be lower on the meter, not on the ear. Matching is better on the duals, but you need a pretty complicated circuit before you can balance the duals well enough to tell, and your grandma doesn't like that. Most noise is, in fact, not the fault of the transistors.

> few parts mic pre that sounded good with the old console sound.

Ah, that's not chimp-work design, that's a research project.

Here. This is not a BBC or RCA console amp, and it is so very "square" that nobody has danced with it in 35 years. But after pushing it around on paper, I like it better than the other plan, for 9V and few transistors.
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Use any dang small transistors you like. For NPN, reverse all polarities. For Beta over 300, change the 220K to 680K. Many modest Si power transistors will work too; Ge power transistors probably won't.

Maximum gain is almost 50dB. Maximum input level is 100mV: if you run hot levels, skip the first stage and drive the top of the pot directly.

With any Si transistor, or the latest quietest Ge, noise will be in the mike, not the amp.

And what about transformer, balanced input, or Phantom? For hot condensers, stick a 600:150 transformer in front and apply Phantom to the 600 ohm side any conventional way. For dynamics, wire it 150:600 for a slight increase of gain (but for dynamics inside bass drums or Fender amps, wire it 600:150). Transformerless input is not really a 2/3-transistor 9V problem.
 
thanks to everybody for their help.
you have no idea how much it is appreciated.
theres a number of circuits here i am going to try.
i was on this stupid Ger kick because so many of the old desks
used to use them that did well respected songs.
and i guess this led me in a certain direction.
my apologies.
prr....you used the word "square" for that circuit.
could you explain further please ??
 
howabout a fet on the front?

maybe the fet would give him that "old" sound he is looking for.

I do not think the two transistor thing will clip any better than a 5532.
It's gonna be harsh, if you go over the max input level.

I like the 600/600 transformer thing.
Those seem the most numerable in my collection at least.
I think they multiply at night.
Hard to make a bad sounding 600:600 also.
 
The RCA BA-31 (or 71? - the 4 transistor version) is an example of a simple preamp. There are two amplifying transistors and the last two transistors are an output buffer. It's not a complicated preamp at all. I have a DIY'ed almost-clone version of it and it sounds kind of ratty - mostly because of my input transformers. I need to get some nice Sowters in there. The amplifier itself seems quite clean at lower gains (below about 30 or so dB). You can use some nice high-gain, low-noise, Si transistors, which is what I did. Some designer down at RCA knew what he/she was doing with this preamp, I think.

A lot of complication in many modern preamps is there when there is no input transformer. The preamp also needs to electronically unbalance the signal, in addition to amplifying. Add all of the auxiliary stuff like phantom power.... On the other hand, the cost of the input and output transformer is a lot higher than all of the transistors used in a transformerless design so fewer parts doesn't mean cheaper.
 
so prr can i use a dynamic mic ok with these designs without using a transformer ??
by the way prr i read your posts avidly as well as many others here.
(out of curiosity prr which <99$ mics do you like ??)
which transistors did you use dale in your preamp ??

on another aspect in my family we have very old records going back to ww2 and i marvel on some of the sweet vocal sounds they have on some song cuts. i have no idea what preamps were used back then.
but they sound very good. what did recording engineers use back in the
forties and fifties ??
 
> what did recording engineers use back in the forties and fifties??

Good singers in good rooms.

A lot of that "sound" is NOT in the gear.
 
and my goal is purely to find an easy to build mic preamp with good gain that sounds nice with a minimal part count.

You could try to find a SSM---2017P. As far as minimal part count (one external resistor, battery) hard to beat! (No, I don't know where you'd find 'em; got mine from Tech Am. which ain't round no more.) :thumb:
 
yes kid i am aware of the ssm chip; problem being the power supply need
being a bipolar approach. and added parts.
thanks for the comment prr. so you feel the second schematic you posted is a better approach it seems ??
the reason i ask is if i could use a schematic like this and try many different transistor combinations to ascertain and test any sound differences; it would be most usefull.
a further question prr; why do some recording engineers seem to value highly the old recording consoles ?? ive forgotten some of the names; spectrasonics. helios and like from that era. is there something special in the components used ??
 
Well, there were not many transistors around back then, if that is a clue.

Neuman U67's, RCA ribbons, Western Electric and UTC transformers, tubes and carbon comp.
Maybe a Fairchild lathe? (or was that early 60's?)
What more could a single body ask for?

Bing Crosby, maybe?
 
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