Kneeling Chairs and Back Problems

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Echo North

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 21, 2006
Messages
4,452
Location
Seattle, WA
Hi All,

I have some degenerative disc/bone spurs/herniated disc issues in the S1/L5/L4 area.  The condition has deteriorated lately despite cortisone shots and physical therapy and the whole deal.

So my question is...

My work baught me a super nice chair a few months ago and it doesn't seem to help.  I tried a standing desk but I'm not enjoying standing all the time.  My doctor is suggesting a kneeling chair.

Something like:
423red02c.jpg


I'm hearing mixed reviews on these.  Anyone ever tried or used one?

Thanks,

Mike

 
Echo North said:
I'm hearing mixed reviews on these.  Anyone ever tried or used one?

Yes. I lasted 2 full days.

You'll be distracted from your back pain by the new knee pain. And if you circulation isn't very good you'll get pins and needles in your feet after long periods.
 
Echo North said:
How about an exercise ball?

The exercise ball was better. I lasted a couple weeks on that until the person sitting across from me at work was driven mad by me bouncing up and down all day  :D
What the ball is doing is not allowing you to slouch. Very handy. More useful is daily no-impact core strength exercises, which is what I do now.
 
What Andrew said. It may not hurt the same old place, but it HURTS after the first minute.

And FWIW: while I have seen these chairs -around- offices, I have NEVER seen one actually in use.

Nor those balls. As excercise, they may make sense. As a work platform, they can only be a short break, and distraction.

> Anyone have back problems and found a sitting solution?

Working on it. For the last 20+ years. Made some progress.

For strain/injury-related disc pain:

Try EVERY chair you can borrow or steal. Adjust the height, tilt, stiffness, add cushions. Keep the best two, and rotate them as needed. If the borrowee complains, use pity and bribery, whatever it takes to keep a chair which suits you.

Sometimes chair-swaps work both ways. Lois finally decided her chair hurt. She went to Office Despot, sat every chair, came back with one she loved. I took her old one, it likes me, has become my 2nd-best and is in my regular rotation.

For -my- back, those "lumbar supports" are a Real Bad Idea. Apparently many people curve that way; I don't. I had to rip the "adjustable lumbar" contraption out of my car seat.

Move your monitor! It is surely in the wrong place. If I ever find the right place, I'll let you know.

Don't, at first, fret about seeing your monitor clearly. Get your body happy. Then, wearing your normal (distance, driving) glasses, measure eye-screen distance "D" in inches. Compute 40/D, round down to nearest 0.25, this is your eyeglass "Add" for this specific situation.

Example: I sit up to 28 inches from screen. 40/28= 1.43, round-down to 1.25. I have 1.25 "Add" on my distance prescription for PC work.

Short-term, get $15 reading-glasses with this number and wear them over your regular specs. This will confirm the calculation. Long-term, you want this correction in the MAIN part of cheap specs used only at the PC. You will have to YELL at your eye doc to get this on an Rx form. They assume "Add" is only for books or sewing, tasks normally done closer than a comfy PC monitor. You may indeed want a 2.0 or 3.0 Add in the bottom of PC bifocals, to read keyboard or pain-pill bottles, but your monitor-distance correction should be the -main- part of the lens.


Although the immediate pain is disc on nerve, discs generally give much less trouble when back muscles are well toned.

WALK. WALK. WALK. WALK. Your/my/our problem is that we are made to WALK. Walk here for fruits and berries, walk there for a drink, walk to the other side of the valley to snare rabbits. You should only sit for an hour before sleep. Modern life does not force walking, often frowns upon it. Fug 'em. Walk, walk, walk.

For -my- back, I have found a trivial exercise which makes a huge difference. I tighten my "belt muscles", as if I were inhaling to get myself into a corset. The first time I tried this, while in pain, I nearly passed-out from the pain, but in a good way. I'd clearly found a critical muscle mass which was not getting any use. Going at it easy, a few times a day, a little more each time, really makes a difference in a week.

One thing occurs to me. I was just on vacation, now back in office. I can drive 2 to 6 hours a day, more in the right car, much less in some cars, much-much less in an office. Most car seats are better than most office chairs. But also the lay-back position helps my back. I am now wondering about mocking-up a genuine car seat, feet at floorboard height, monitor at windshield height, keyboard at steering height. I suppose it is different because you hang on the steering, but must hover over the keyboard. Perhaps a split keyboard on side armrests. Of course getting in and out of this affair is as bad as getting in/out a modern sedan. Perhaps it should all be raised like a 1942 Plymouth.

I like 1968 VW and 1979 Tbird seats (in very different ways). If you know a car-seat which works for you, you can probably score one from a wreck for less than the cost of a mid-line office chair. Much further work is needed to adapt it for the office, and yes it is tiresome to drill and saw while your back hurts. But it may be worth the effort.
 
For me, who had the same problems, there wasn't a sitting solution. It was laying down or standing up only. Now I'm not sure how severe your pain is, but the muscles in my ass locked up for a week and I had sciatic pain down to my mid calves and little feeling in my feet. Initially, they gave me prednisone to get the muscles to unlock and they did, but the leg pain and numbness didn't get any better. They tried the shots and they did nothing at all.

I had surgery on the L5/S1 disk in August 2007. Best thing I could have done for myself even though it knocked me out of a lot of stuff for a while. I had what is called a microdiscectomy. They basically trim off the protruding piece of disc so it isn't hitting the spinal cord anymore. The sciatic pain is only there during barometric pressure changes and the numbness in my feet is partially permanent. But I've been back playing drums for almost a year now and DIY returned a couple of months ago (leaning over a workbench somehow is worse than drumming).

I hope you aren't in as bad shape as I was.

Matt
 
I'm writing this post on a kneeling chair. I agree - you trade back pain for knee pain. However, knee pain isn't as debilitating as back pain... I've had the kneeler a few months now and swear by it. Until you've tried one, you never know if it suits you. My friend's had serious surgery on her back and she uses a kneeling chair. The Swiss Ball is worth trying. Also note that there are literally a thousand exercises you can do with a ball that'll strengthen your back.

My back pain flared up a few weeks back at the gym when I was doing sit-ups. I now longer do sit-ups... I use the ball for ABS exercises. My recommendation is to work on a fitness regime that suits your back problem. Keeping fit keeps your body supple, which is a good thing.

You can also look into an adjustable desk. They're awesomely expensive though - maybe a case for DIY.

If you're a lottery winner, you can check out a Bambach stool: http://www.shape-seating.com/bambach.htm

There are specialist companies selling chairs for people with back issues that are desk-bound for work. Be prepared to pay stupid money though. Maybe try a secondhand kneeling chair and sell it if you hate it? I borrowed my friend's kneeler. She got so pissed with me I ended up buying her a brand new one...

I cannot think of words to convey my contempt for the quacks that are Osteopaths and Chiropractors. 9 out of 10 Physio's aren't very good. My advice is to be prepared to visit many Physio's to find a good one. Avoid quacks. If they don't have a doctorate, don't visit them.

Justin
 
Has anyone ever read "Healing Back Pain" by Dr. John Sarno?
http://www.healingbackpain.com/books.html

All the stretching and physical activity is important, for living well in general.  Dr. Sarno's work brings the brain into it.

My back would spaz-out every few months.  The xrays showed what could be a ruptured disk, got the shots, all the usual, but it was all only boilerplate doctor responses.  I haven't had back or any other kind of pain since I read the book. 
Mike
 
Thank you for all of the info guys.

I definitely agree that core exercises (belt tightening/holding in gas) are very important, and I have become a little lazy with those.

After I received my first injection things were a lot better.  I started doing Yoga and as Joel said that was a HUGE help.  Unfortunately after about 2 months the injection wore off and I started to get serious pain to the point I could no longer exercise. I had a second injection about 3 weeks ago and it did nothing.  Things have got worse and it's not helped by the fact that my current work situation is requiring me to sit for many many hours a day.  Good news is that this will change soon (taking some time off).  I'm scheduled for another "re-shot" next week.

Work has basically told me to get what ever I need to feel better.  I do think ultimately the hydraulic desk is the answer.  That way I can go between sitting and standing as much as I want.  I also hear rumors that some one in the Math department has a kneeling chair so I'll see if I can borrow that for a few days.

Mostly it's classic sciatic I suppose.  Lower right back/ass pain and "pins and needles" in the leg and foot.  And yes working over my DIY bench sucks as does packing orders because of the twisting I do to grab parts.  That is more of  setup issue though....please continue to order!  It's a good pain. ;)

I also definitely need to fix my monitor height. I realized this now as I was trying to understand all of PRR's calculations and was slumping over.

I'm guessing at this point this is something I need to learn how to manage for the rest of my life (I'm 33 now).

Thanks again guys, we need a "Back Pain" support thread.

Mike

Off Topic - PRR I was thinking about you the other day when we had our new house inspected and the inspector noted "All of your outlets in the kitchen are reverse polarity".
 
> I'm writing this post on a kneeling chair.

I sit corrected.

> Has anyone ever read "Healing Back Pain" by Dr. John Sarno? http://www.healingbackpain.com/

No, but it appears his ideas are not new and not majorly wrong. If you are on bedrest and darvon, you should read it.

An apparently reputable study "found a 54% success rate for treatment". This is very high for chronic (year after year) back pain treatments.

"His theory suggests that the autonomic nervous system decreases blood flow to muscles, nerves or tendons, resulting in oxygen deprivation, experienced as pain and tension in the affected tissues."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tension_myositis_syndrome

There's little proof that his proposed mechanics are what is really happening. It would be incredibly difficult to instrument the theorized effects, being a combination of micro-changes in odd parts of the body and what is happening inside the head below the conscious level.

But many of his teachings map my own learnings. The pain is not directly related to the nerve-pinch, but an over-reaction to it. Rest, except for short crisis, really makes the pain worse. Most activity (chairs and sit-ups excluded) may make you tired and sore but will NOT "break something", will reduce future pain. Your back-brain is not your body's friend. Sarno teaches his understanding of this relation, which may lead you out of chronic pain.

OTOH, there is a major pills-massage-and-surgery infrastructure which could collapse if his methods were widely used. And he has insignificant "proof". And he is a critic of conventional treatments. So he is easy to attack, and controversial.
 
i always work standing in my bench...and i worked around 30 min bending my back to the front and suddenly a high pitch pain appeared in my back arghh...
it hurts...

 
> my current work situation is requiring me to sit for many many hours a day.
> Work has basically told me to get what ever I need to feel better.


These two statements conflict.

Yes, I hear the same phooph all the time. The Boss wants you to feel good, but OTOH the work has to get done. And back-pain and office work go together... you are good at your job BECAUSE you spent too many years sitting in that chair.

"Whatever you need" may cover a $200 telephone (for Lois' neck); but around my place I'd have to invoke ADA to get a $1,300 super-chair. (Not only am I not worth the cost; we have an exclusive vendor deal and all their chairs suck.) And it certainly won't cover a secretary to handle your keys while you pace up and down the building dictating.

> fix my monitor height.

Do It!

> calculations ...I'm 33 now

Ah, you are on the cusp.

When young, books (13"-15") were very clear but the chalkboard was fuzzy. I thought this was normal, until they put glasses on me: wow! I actually had excellent vision, but was not focused for a distance. I could sense the difference from age 10 to 20, but not for-sure. At age 30, I was always taking my glasses off to read. The near edge of my corrected vision was converging on infinity. This particularly bothered me at PC: I can rarely work a PC at my naked-eye 13"-15", and I can not work at 60" which is now the nearest clear edge of my corrected vision.

The age-relationship is fairly consistent for everybody. At 33 you don't "need" glasses, but near things are not as sharp as they used to be, and you "slump" and strain to deal with it. You are subliminally frustrated. Eventually you will "need" glasses (or specific prescriptions) for short and medium distances.

> calculations

Optometry is done in Metric, and for practical purpose 1 Meter is 40 inches. (All optometry has 10% slack and drift so why sweat the 1% correction from 39.39"?)

Many optic calculations are like parallel resistance: everything is one-over inversion. Therefore the Diopter is one-over-one-meter. A lens with 40" focal length is 1 Diopter, a lens with 13" focal length is 3 Diopter. The 3 Diopter lens is "stronger", so it is intuitive, except when you measure lengths with yardsticks.

There is an assumption that a "normal eye" when relaxed focuses at infinity. I do not believe that this is the Designer's Goal (near vision IS useful) but it is convenient to normalize to infinity.

My naked eye focuses well at 15 inches. It is too strong to focus at infinity. If I place a negative (concave glass) lens in front of my eye, focus shifts away from me. In metric Diopters, I need 40/15= negative 2.66 Diopter correction to see stars clearly. To focus at 20 feet, I need about 0.167 Diopter less, a -2.5D lens. This 0.16D shift is so small that few eyes can detect the difference in clarity; most optometry actually assumes infinity is =>20 feet, the eye-chart is hung 20 feet away, we say "20:20" if you read it clearly. 

The eye has muscles to add lens strength. When young, over 10 Diopter additional power can be applied without strain. "Accommodation". If the relaxed eye is focused (or corrected) to infinity, 3 or 4 D more power focuses at 13" or 10". Young eyes read books well.

I have less than 1 Diopter accommodation. When corrected for infinity, I can no longer strain in to 40 inches with full clarity. This varies with light and fatigue; most days clear sight at 60" is annoying.

With monitor at 32", I would "add" +1.25 Diopter to my infinity correction. If I had a full Diopter accommodation left, I could apply 1.25D+1.0D= 2.25D or down to 18". At this moment I am sitting 24" or 1.67D away, so I must have 1.67D-1.25D= 0.4D accommodation in my eye.

At 33, you should have 7 or 10 diopter accommodation. If you can relax to infinity focus (with glasses if needed), then you should be able to focus to 6 inches. If true, it rules out trouble with focus accommodation at PC distance.

> was slumping over

I keep dropping my monitor. I now have my main work pair, with conventional (but selected) office chair, at 28"-40" bottom-top. Note that a standard desk is 30" high: desks are still made for scribbling, NOT-NOT-NOT for PC work. While scouting for chairs to try, look out for computer tables. I nab ones coming out of Student Labs. Simple flat surface at 26" off the floor. This is still a bit high for keyboard. I added a drop-shelf at 23" but it cramps my knees. I sometimes see adjustable keyboard level PC tables, but have not nabbed one yet; I'm on the hunt for simple yet solid.

Decades back I built a custom "box" for my first PC (an 8o88!). The top of the keyboard shelf is 24.5", and IIRC the top of the monitor shelf is 27.5". With old tilt/swivel CRTs, the bottom edge was well above 30", though the top edge of the small raster was well under 40". I now have a 19" LCD crammed in there: the stand is removed, case sits on mousepad corner, raster starts near 28.5".
 
> i always work standing in my bench...

An un-natural act.

Look at old photos of electronics factory workers chained to workbenches. They nearly all had stools.

> suddenly a high pitch pain appeared in my back arghh...

Classic micro-tear.

> it hurts...

Yes, it really does.

If this is a surprise to you, you WILL be fine.

The pain is all out of proportion to the actual injury. It is not your back, it is your hind-brain freaking-out about the tiny but unexpected injury in an area it hardly knew existed.

Walk, walk, walk.

If you are in spasm with sciatica (you: probably not), you may barely manage baby-steps. And 100 feet may be exhausting. So baby-step 100 feet, and then lay down very flat. Think through your whole body and relax every piece. Set a timer: you do NOT want to lay still for more than 20-30 minutes. Move to the couch, the bed, a chair; and walk again.

Each time you walk, your hind-brain gets more used to the idea that 'something happened' and it is No Big Deal. Tendon 264 is a little floppy today, so fuggin' what? Don't lean over the bench today, but any other motion helps both your back and your hind-brain get used to the change, and get over the over-reaction.

I don't/won't Yoga but it is obviously a variant of what I do do. Combination of very-relaxed with full deliberate motion. And some yoga tapes have cute leotards.

I find Sleepy Time tea helpful. Chamomile is relaxing, but Sleepy Time works far better than others; dunno why. 12 ounces water, 2 bags, bring to roiling boil, stir, cover, cool, squeeze bags, sip. Two or three doses a day is ample; more is not better, and you'll sweat mint. (If you also have sinus trouble, snort the steam as it cools.)
sleepytime-sm.jpg
 
PRR said:
The age-relationship is fairly consistent for everybody. At 33 you don't "need" glasses, but near things are not as sharp as they used to be, and you "slump" and strain to deal with it. You are subliminally frustrated. Eventually you will "need" glasses (or specific prescriptions) for short and medium distances.

True.

However, I have done well up until last autumn, at 48. Considering that I have done very fine work for over 30 years. But it all happened literally in a day. One night I was reading in bed as usual, I looked up the tv which is about 3m away, it was all fuzzy, took me about 15-20 seconds to focus. Then I looked back at the book and it took me another 10-15 seconds to focus. I have been putting it off since then but the time is up. And after mis-reading things in few occassions even in this forum it's time for a visit to the optician.
 
I'm minus 7.00 diopters and have been since 16.  I came out of the womb with -2.00D's on.

I can't see anything without my glasses.  If a cat (say the one in my avatar) knocks them off the bed side table, I need assistance to find them.

I suppose I'll need bifocals soon.  Luckily I'm married and not looking for dates.

Mike
 
+1 for the exceptional importance of correct monitor height- this causes not only hurts in the back because you can not relax but also is very very bad for your neck and can result in disastrous and even chronical headaches over time! Had that once and took me a long time to find the reason.

as for the kneeling chair: I had it and tried hard to feel good with it, because I had very huge back problems and was just 23!!! But it hurts your legs more than it does good for your back.

I did following things and got rid of chronical back problems despite the doctors opinions that they will stay forever....
1. I started muscle training the old bodybuilding way and did this for 2 years with special regard to classical methods and very good care and feel. I guess my body and me 'learned' how it feels whether I move correctly or hurt myself. Probably the best thing I could have done... much better than relaxans and pain pills. (however, when it was too late sometimes nothing went without that...)
2. I learned Chi Gong and a bit of tai chi. Until today there are some movements I can do instantly when I have an aching back and in 90% it works spot-on after mostly less than 5 minutes.
3. Get the best chair you can. Try different ones for more than a week, until you have one that you can use for long concentrated sessions where you can relax and move 'inside the chair', maybe with a grip to activate a soft but powerful spring mechanism. Worked for me.

Now 15 years with little problems in comparison with younger days....I'm so lucky.
it was just the chinese way of medicine - if it starts to hurt then start to move and listen to your body! (In western culture most people actually *stop* doing sports when they begin to feel ill, in eastern tradition it's the best time to *start* moving!)

Kind regards,
Martin
 
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