Laziest president ever

[iampoor1]

Whats with the obsession of Europeans being involved in our politics on social media and forums? Not to derail the thread too hard, but it always comes off as odd to me. I wouldnt dare pretend to have an opinion of European politics based on the amount of coverage we have in the US of it, or is there actually comprehensive coverage of American politics in Europe?

 

[Jarno]

Whats with the obsession of Europeans being involved in our politics on social media and forums? Not to derail the thread too hard, but it always comes off as odd to me. I wouldnt dare pretend to have an opinion of European politics based on the amount of coverage we have in the US of it, or is there actually comprehensive coverage of American politics in Europe?

We view (or at least, I do), American politics because there are very worrying things going on. Things that we in Europe and in the US have always fought against. We need to make sure that companies do not get too big a hold on politics, to sway decisions in their direction, and use politics to unfairly gain an advantage. At the same time, we want an honest representation of the will of people, this is what Democracy is about.
We in Europe, have a more global view of politics, and realise that decisions made in country politics can have influence abroad.

Regardless of whether one is a Democrat or a Republican, the public should make sure their representation is fair, and representatives are held accountable for lies and misrepresentations. 
Attack ads, lies, donations from companies, partisan "news", not fair representation. Fight this, and not say "yeah, but they are doing it too, look at them".
As I mentioned before, the American people should prevent become victims of the "he-said-she-said" circus. One sees it going on on this very forum.
Form a well argumented opinion on what each side is going to do for you, and how much they can do for you. Choose based on that and not based on where you live, or what your family/ colleagues historically voted.

In short, I think it is the perceived unfairness which triggers us (myself, and I think us Dutchies in general).

 

[Banzai]

Whats with the obsession of Europeans being involved in our politics on social media and forums? Not to derail the thread too hard, but it always comes off as odd to me. I wouldnt dare pretend to have an opinion of European politics based on the amount of coverage we have in the US of it, or is there actually comprehensive coverage of American politics in Europe?

Yes, we have internet in Europe too  ;D

Like Jarno said, US actions have far-reaching impact.

Unstable US presidency = unstable world.

 

[living sounds]

no, just pointing out the obvious.  I am sure the view from over there is different then over here.    But truth is their schedule and everything thing that is coming out, it's not the norm to have any of that out in the public. I can only assume it's either not accurate, it's made up or that someone should be fired for leaking information.

I bet you that his schedule is no different then his predecessors  but we have to make an issue with it because resist and other nonsense.  Their slogan should be find a better candidate. They have some time...

In other words: If the reporting does not support your point of view, it has to be false. That kind of thinking is currently the worst problem.

 

[living sounds]

Whats with the obsession of Europeans being involved in our politics on social media and forums? Not to derail the thread too hard, but it always comes off as odd to me. I wouldnt dare pretend to have an opinion of European politics based on the amount of coverage we have in the US of it, or is there actually comprehensive coverage of American politics in Europe?

We only have one planet. And the US is the dominant factor in world politics.

I worry much the same about the election of a Facist in Brazil. There is only one Amazon Rainforest, and it belongs to all humanity much the same.

Nationalism is only an idea, and a very limited one.

I want everyone here to point out problems in my country or elsewhere, too, and am happy to discuss them. Stupid ideas must be challenged whenever and whereever they rise to the surface.

 

[JohnRoberts]

I want everyone here to point out problems in my country or elsewhere, too, and am happy to discuss them. Stupid ideas must be challenged whenever and whereever they rise to the surface.

Seriously? While it may not seem that way I try to soft pedal criticism of other countries because I know how angry it makes me to hear cheap shots about America. I suspect parroting a snarky media that trys to make their audience feel better about themselves by showing embarrassing stories about America. No doubt we provide an endless supply of embarrassing news stories  .
======
I mentioned in passing that Angela Merkel stepped down as her party leader, no doubt payback for her not very discriminating immigration expansion.  On paper the German factories need affordable workers, but she did not prepare the country for the cultural difficulties absorbing all these new migrants.
---
Energy policy? Shutting down nuclear power plants forcing reliance on coal fired plants, when the wind is not blowing or the sun shining does not seem very wise. German electricity prices are well above the EU average. 
---
I applaud the recent shift toward accommodating importing LNG to reduce dependance on Russian gas. 
---
What about the german car makers and diesel emissions? What started out as one bad actor (VW) screwing up, turns out to be an industry wide conspiracy to thwart diesel emissions regulations world wide. I guess the air is clean on paper.  :
---
I do not enjoy criticizing other countries when we have so much to fix right here.... I expect my critique to be as unappreciated as yours are.  8)

JR

PS: The US has a long history with the old world that we broke away from for good reasons (Hessian mercenaries fought for Great Britain during our revolutionary war). Since then much history has transpired  (at the moment I am reading a book about fighter aviation history and learning stuff about WWI I didn't know or remember learning). Our histories have long been intertwined and will remain that way as the future world keeps getting smaller. 

 

[JohnRoberts]

After Charlottesville, Mike Godwin said: "By all means, compare these sh*theads to the Nazis. Again and again. I'm with you."

Yes,,, but he also said, know what you are talking about... skinheads in Charlottesville deserve no defense, nor does the miscreant in Pittsburgh, but lumping all conservatives with nazis or white supremacists sure looks like overreach to this one conservative.

I do not perceive a wave of neo-nazism in the US (like in some other countries). FWIW anti-semitism is rampant in the EU and around the world. France even posts armed guards outside Jewish meeting places. Despite strict gun control laws in France, this seems prudent in light of recent history.

=====

The "Fascist" (?) (actually conservative) just elected in Brazil, was supported by women and gay voters despite his past disparaging comments against gays, because the alternative party is associated with massive corruption, considered unacceptable.

As often happens people have to make "lesser evil" trade offs when voting their own self interest. If a candidate sounds too good to be true, (s)he probably is.

JR

PS: Hyperbolic political speech (Fascist, Nazi, etc...) dilutes and insults the memory of people killed over the centuries by malign rulers.

 

[pucho812]

In other words: If the reporting does not support your point of view, it has to be false. That kind of thinking is currently the worst problem.

that thinking is the worst, I agree. Unfortunately that's not my thinking here and elsewhere. My point of view if any on this subject is this: For decades we had a person in that position and it was always hush on their daily routine, unless something obvious like taking a morning exercise or some other thing in public. Never to my knowledge has their been such an open disregard for the guy who got elected saying all kinds of things true and not true.  Never in my history on this earth has their been such an open opposition to a person in position that people are spouting their mouth off and other dumb things. They ignore the obvious which is if you really do not like the guy, we have the option to remove him  from that position when his first term is up.  We have many options far away from "resist" and other nonsense. It doesn't seem to be getting them anywhere anyway so might as well focus that energy on something constructive, like finding a candidate.  As for my view, my view  of the sh*t show is that of a frank zappa, My government needs to be responsible on the fiscal side and be less controlling on the social side.  I read a thing yesterday talking about $1200.00 cups of coffee's in the Air Force. While over spending for common items is not new it still angers the blood to hear it.

 

[dmp]

Never to my knowledge has their been such an open disregard for the guy who got elected saying all kinds of things true and not true.  Never in my history on this earth has their been such an open opposition to a person in position that people are spouting their mouth off and other dumb things.

The hostility toward Obama was incredible. Look back at Trump's twitter feed. He attacked Obama day in day out.  If you had tuned into right wing media during his time, the rhetoric was off the charts.  And Tea baggers had armed stand offs with the government.

Partisan news media is spinning a story that is different than reality. If you are getting your news from facebook or other partisan click bait you're going to be totally disconnected from reality. Just turn all that sh*t off.

 

[pucho812]

The hostility toward Obama was incredible. Look back at Trump's twitter feed. He attacked Obama day in day out.  If you had tuned into right wing media during his time, the rhetoric was off the charts.  And Tea baggers had armed stand offs with the government.

Partisan news media is spinning a story that is different than reality. If you are getting your news from facebook or other partisan click bait you're going to be totally disconnected from reality. Just turn all that sh*t off.

Exactly.  To add to that point, there is a difference between the news and op-ed shows which dominate the nightly landscape.  ON any major news network here in the u.s. it's op-ed shows in the evening with news reports that are minutes long in-between then.  I feel bad for people who cannot discern the difference between op-ed shows and news reports. 

 

[JohnRoberts]

The hostility toward Obama was incredible.

I'd say this is pretty subjective...

I can't count how many times I was called racist for just disagreeing with President Obama's policy.

Now instead I am called a white supremacist (nazi, fascist....) for agreeing with President Trump.  : The only common theme is that the same one side is fast and loose with pejorative accusations.  (One lady on face book called me a drummer  8) )

Look back at Trump's twitter feed. He attacked Obama day in day out.

I wouldn't watch his twitter now let alone back then..

If you had tuned into right wing media during his time, the rhetoric was off the charts.

extreme right and left have always been "extreme" (duh)

And Tea baggers had armed stand offs with the government.

Tea baggers is too pejorative to throw around so freely (but you guys appear angry.)

Tea party was remarkably well behaved and held multiple peaceful assemblies (even picking up their own trash after themselves.) Bundy was a special case and far from an icon for the tea party.

Partisan news media is spinning a story that is different than reality. If you are getting your news from facebook or other partisan click bait you're going to be totally disconnected from reality. Just turn all that sh*t off.

We finally agree about something... yes partisan news media is less than worthless (both sides).

JR

 

[Jarno]

Seriously? While it may not seem that way I try to soft pedal criticism of other countries because I know how angry it makes me to hear cheap shots about America. I suspect parroting a snarky media that trys to make their audience feel better about themselves by showing embarrassing stories about America. No doubt we provide an endless supply of embarrassing news stories  .
======
I mentioned in passing that Angela Merkel stepped down as her party leader, no doubt payback for her not very discriminating immigration expansion.  On paper the German factories need affordable workers, but she did not prepare the country for the cultural difficulties absorbing all these new migrants.
---
Energy policy? Shutting down nuclear power plants forcing reliance on coal fired plants, when the wind is not blowing or the sun shining does not seem very wise. German electricity prices are well above the EU average. 
---
I applaud the recent shift toward accommodating importing LNG to reduce dependance on Russian gas. 
---
What about the german car makers and diesel emissions? What started out as one bad actor (VW) screwing up, turns out to be an industry wide conspiracy to thwart diesel emissions regulations world wide. I guess the air is clean on paper.  :
---
I do not enjoy criticizing other countries when we have so much to fix right here.... I expect my critique to be as unappreciated as yours are.  8)

JR

PS: The US has a long history with the old world that we broke away from for good reasons (Hessian mercenaries fought for Great Britain during our revolutionary war). Since then much history has transpired  (at the moment I am reading a book about fighter aviation history and learning stuff about WWI I didn't know or remember learning). Our histories have long been intertwined and will remain that way as the future world keeps getting smaller.

I do not want to go ping pong on arguments, but the list you made is interesting

We certainly have issues on making the multi cultural civilization work, and that is a work in progress. I myself are more on the right of center on the political spectrum, and I think if people are coming here they should abide by our rules, as we need to do when visiting their countries, I feel that "the left" sometimes is lax about this. At the same time, if someones house is burning, you help them.

The energy policy is a very good example of a government taking direction by it's boss, the people. The people have chosen to no longer accept nuclear energy, and not go back an use coal. Higher energy cost is simply a result of that decision, it is not the task of the government to make everything cheaper for the people, it's task is to govern, sustainability is simply one of the constraints.

Gas is something that is very actual in the Netherlands as well, we had a lot of it, and it has brought us prosperity (and warmth). But as we are facing problems related to gas production (small earthquakes, causing houses to crack), the government is turning off the tap, yes that is a painful decision, and yes it is going to cost money. Again, it is about doing the right thing, not about making things cheap at all cost.

German carmakers is another very good example of big corporations being made accountable for their actions, no lobbying, bribes, attack ads, climate change denial, no. A CEO going to jail. As an engineer, I say somebody designed a blunt spec, and car manufacturers designed their cars to perform well in that test, the public sees it differently, and car manufacturers are held accountable.

There is always something to fix, and the question is not who to blame, but to fix it. I am not saying the Republicans are better or worse than the Democrats, I am saying that the public should call out when politicians are not getting it right, the public is their boss, not corporations and think tanks and those type of groups.

 

[JohnRoberts]

I do not want to go ping pong on arguments, but the list you made is interesting

We certainly have issues on making the multi cultural civilization work, and that is a work in progress. I myself are more on the right of center on the political spectrum, and I think if people are coming here they should abide by our rules, as we need to do when visiting their countries, I feel that "the left" sometimes is lax about this. At the same time, if someones house is burning, you help them.

The energy policy is a very good example of a government taking direction by it's boss, the people. The people have chosen to no longer accept nuclear energy, and not go back an use coal. Higher energy cost is simply a result of that decision, it is not the task of the government to make everything cheaper for the people, it's task is to govern, sustainability is simply one of the constraints.

That was not the question... it was nuclear vs feel good solar/wind power... the government is supposed to do the math and tell the truth. Namely Solar+wind-nuclear is not enough, requiring coal... Did the voters knowingly vote for coal? (I'll take existing nuke plants over coal any day of the week). 

Gas is something that is very actual in the Netherlands as well, we had a lot of it, and it has brought us prosperity (and warmth). But as we are facing problems related to gas production (small earthquakes, causing houses to crack), the government is turning off the tap, yes that is a painful decision, and yes it is going to cost money. Again, it is about doing the right thing, not about making things cheap at all cost.

yes, as I have noted before fracking is incompatible with closely spaced very old buildings like in EU. 

German carmakers is another very good example of big corporations being made accountable for their actions, no lobbying, bribes, attack ads, climate change denial, no. A CEO going to jail. As an engineer, I say somebody designed a blunt spec, and car manufacturers designed their cars to perform well in that test, the public sees it differently, and car manufacturers are held accountable.

They clearly cheated the test procedure...(they gamed the software to measure better on the test, than in the real world on roads)  competitors could not understand how they could possibly meet the specs and we found out that they didn't.  :

Corporate governance is not much improved with unions and local government sitting on the board of directors. Not richy rich cheating the public, but unions and local government also with fingers in the pot. 

There is always something to fix, and the question is not who to blame, but to fix it. I am not saying the Republicans are better or worse than the Democrats, I am saying that the public should call out when politicians are not getting it right, the public is their boss, not corporations and think tanks and those type of groups.

Yes, our republic is still a work in process with only a few centuries under our belt, not close to perfect but I remain optimistic about what we have accomplished so far.

JR

 

[ruffrecords]

Yes, our republic is still a work in process with only a few centuries under our belt, not close to perfect but I remain optimistic about what we have accomplished so far.

JR

No human created political system will be perfect whilst humans are (thankfully) imperfect. It's all a question of degree.

Cheers

Ian

 

[desol]

Donald Trump is a goof.

 

[living sounds]

Orwellian bullshit from the EU:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/nov/02/eu-border-lie-detection-system-criticised-as-pseudoscience

 

[iturnknobs]

WWJS? 

Hint Google "Godwin's Law".  :

JR

Real cute.  That's not really a rebuttal, but intentional ignorance in the name of your cause... which I can't define. You debate in the interests of the right, which do not support the well being of the masses. In fact, many of their policies are down right cruel and contradictory to the teachings of the Bible, which so many say is an ideology that directs the party. Humans proliferate for 2 reasons. Greed and sharing. I support the party of the latter. Choose your poison. Just be aware that it is in fact , that. If you had the confidence to declare that profit is the only thing that matters, I could at least "respect" your arguments.

 

[iturnknobs]

Be a real republican and horde all your knowledge for yourself and your inner circle.  Don't allow this forum to be a "socialist" environment where others can lazily profit off your work and knowledge. If you're gonna do it, do it all the way.

 

[JohnRoberts]

Real cute.  That's not really a rebuttal, but intentional ignorance in the name of your cause... which I can't define. You debate in the interests of the right, which do not support the well being of the masses. In fact, many of their policies are down right cruel and contradictory to the teachings of the Bible, which so many say is an ideology that directs the party. Humans proliferate for 2 reasons. Greed and sharing. I support the party of the latter. Choose your poison. Just be aware that it is in fact , that. If you had the confidence to declare that profit is the only thing that matters, I could at least "respect" your arguments.

Intentional ignorance?  :

I am not playing politics (I do not expect to change anybody's mind, nor ask or care about your respect). 

I do try to clear up misinformation and provide context.  Not unlike how I approach electronics issues, but with less push back than I get here in the brewery.

After decades of posting here often repeating myself I get a little weary.  I expect the political speech to peak this week and hopefully calm down a little after the vote.

JR

 

[iturnknobs]

Intentional ignorance?  :

After decades of posting here often repeating myself I get a little weary.  I expect the political speech to peak this week and hopefully calm down a little after the vote.

JR

Weary? Your activity in the Brewery would not indicate that. Neither of us are helping anything by continuing these discussions. Obviously, I am guilty also. The only difference I can see is I support policy which is in the interest of most, instead of a few, which would again be the point of this entire forum. That being said, support of those, or parties, who do not have the interest in mind for most individuals, would be going directly against the spirit of this forum.