Line voltage variations

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NewYorkDave

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 4, 2004
Messages
4,378
Location
New York (Hudson Valley)
Designers: when checking PSU prototypes, over what range of line voltage variation do you prefer to test? I usually check over +/- 10%, but I'd like to hear input from others. Is it a completely arbitrary thing or is there a "standard" practice enshrined in some regulation or other document somewhere?

This came to mind today because I was checking a simple brute-force zener (shunt) regulated supply. I dialed in the values for a 120V line and found that it maintained decent regulation down to less than 110V. At 106V, the zener string was operating in its "knee" region and regulation started to suffer. But by my (arbitrary) +/-10% rule, I wouldn't be worring much about line voltages below, say, 108V.
 
This issue has gotten tricky in relatively recent times. Things may get better as more adopt power factor correction, but for light loads this spends a lot of money, perhaps unwarranted.

The problem is: most of our supplies charge caps on voltage peaks. But there are so many devices doing this that the line tends to be clipped. Even if things measure fairly respectably, we may not get that cherry peak of the assumed-to-be sinusoidal waveform. So our peak voltage won't be quite as much as expected.

That doesn't really answer your question though. I guess if I don't know the environment I'd design for +/- 15% if it is mission-critical. I've heard of higher lines in Australia and UK but have no direct experience.

I have a story about bedevilment by low line at the telescope that I will save for another day (don't think I've related it in here yet anyway, but who knows).
 
It depends on the market you're designing for and to some extent the product.

I've seen power amp engineers get bit by high line taking out their reservoir capacitors, and it can get expensive to bump up to the next voltage range when you're counting every penny. Conservative engineers always design in some wiggle room, brave engineers assume the manufacturer was a conservative engineer... When both assume the other is the responsible one, stuff happens.

Low voltage horror stories were South America, and worst for high voltage was outback of Australia.

JR
 
I usually assume +/- 10%, but one of these years I'm gonna hang a voltmeter on the wall socket and see what's really coming out.

Peace,
Paul
 
I measured close to 140V one night when I noticed how bright my incandescent bulbs were. It was a problem with a stuck utility bump winding at the sub station that didn't adjust as load dropped off. I called the power company because my mains were way too hot and still rising... they didn't believe me, but since it was a slow night the guy drove his huge ass power truck more than 25 miles to check me out.

After confirming that I wasn't full of sierra, he drove the mile and a half up the road to the power sub station and probably whacked the stuck stepper with a hammer (carefully I'm sure), because the lights dimmed back to normal between his first visit and second.

It might have been amusing to see how high the voltage would have climbed as people went to bed and more load dropped off, but I wasn't interested enough to sacrifice my appliances.

JR
 
> I usually assume +/- 10%,

10% of what?

And which utility gives its workers meters with 10% accururacy?

This isn't rocket surgery. It is a chain of mis-tappings and saggy wires. In some areas, the only final inspector is the customer noticing that lights aren't right.

> but one of these years I'm gonna hang a voltmeter on the wall socket and see what's really coming out.

Do it NOW.

I had odd problems for years.

It got to the point that I could NOT melt solder with my father's soldering iron (or any of my other known-good irons).

I gave-away a digital iron because it just sucked (though it did eventually melt solder).

Finally I thought to monitor line voltage throughout the day. I'm below 110V a lot of the time.

The deal is: I'm pulling 10-24 Amps through 140 feet (one way) of #12 wire.

This building was SUB-standard as-built.

Then I added way too many "little loads".

I've seen 106V. (In another even older building I've seen 104V.)

OTOH, at home we had lamps dying in days. Same problem only fixed: the overhead feeder was undersize, they'd cranked the transformer to 125V, we got 115V-124V through the day. Then later they switched to a beefy underground feeder. Now I had 124.9V all the time. A chum in a new development in Texas says they get 129V when the air conditioners are not running.

Oh... the other reason I could not melt solder: the building's old ventilation system was replaced a while back. Not even close to properly dampered. I had HUGE airflow in my office and specifically across the soldering area. Good for fumes, but it was past the breeze that my irons were made for. I (unjammed and) adjusted my room-damper down to 2/3, and could melt solder any time I had 111V or more.

$3,000 later, I have three new #12 circuits (still 140' long) with 117V at one end and 115.2V at my end.

Note that I have 0.5 ohms line resistance. With cap-input filters, this really bites the peaks. (This saved my butt once: I accidentally connected a transformer backward, tried to put 1,200V on 2,000uFd 25V caps. Lights dimmed, tranny HUMMMMed, but I shut-down before anything smoked. With good solid power, it would have been more dramatic.)

I have not mentioned my mushroom cloud. 240V/120V split, Neutral connection bad, became a 180V-60V split (depending if the coffee pot was on or off). And of course I was on the 180V side. With a new powered mixer. With big electrolytic cap. Which makes big smoke when it blows. Rare, but not all that rare.
 
IEC say +/-10% of nominal line voltage which in EU is 230V with UK at 240V, EU will gradually go to 240V around I think 2012-2015.
IEC/EU norms prescribe mandatory testing over +/-10% of nominal.
 
[quote author="PRR"]>

And which utility gives its workers meters with 10% accururacy? [/quote]

The good old boy who came out to prove me wrong had a trusty old Simpson 260, probably fair.

I have not mentioned my mushroom cloud. 240V/120V split, Neutral connection bad, became a 180V-60V split (depending if the coffee pot was on or off). And of course I was on the 180V side. With a new powered mixer. With big electrolytic cap. Which makes big smoke when it blows. Rare, but not all that rare.


Yup.. that's is why they didn't believe me, and metered at the drop outside my house. A flaky neutral between panel and transformer can cause same symptom.

The first thing I did before I called them at 9PM, was was go to my fuse box and measure 270v or so across both hots. I've had enough idiot customers yanking my chain at my day job, to do the same thing to someone else, if I can help it.

JR
 
[quote author="VacuumVoodoo"]IEC say +/-10% of nominal line voltage which in EU is 230V with UK at 240V[/quote]
The EU norm is actually 230V all over (including the UK). The difference is the tolerances. The spec is 230V -10/+6% in the "220V" countries and 230V -6/+10% in the "240V" countries. Are you sure about the EU switching to 240V? That doesn't make much sense, so you're probably right.

Best regards,

Mikkel C. Simonsen
 
[quote author="mcs"]
The EU norm is actually 230V all over (including the UK). The difference is the tolerances. The spec is 230V -10/+6% in the "220V" countries and 230V -6/+10% in the "240V" countries. Are you sure about the EU switching to 240V? That doesn't make much sense, so you're probably right.

Best regards,

Mikkel C. Simonsen[/quote]

If we made the tolerance -50% we could be a 230V country too... :wink:

JR
 
to linemen :guinness: :guinness: :guinness:



i believe the tolerance for residential service where i work is 120/240 +/- 10%

there are watthour meters that record the high and low readings strategically placed throughout the system

industrial services have a much greater tolerance IIRC 20% +/-

we did have a situation a few weeks ago where the substation operator did not change the autotransformer tap when he should have and for 2 days an area was getting extra volts...what i heard was that a factory kept complaining about motors running too fast...but this is rare.

does anyone know of any simple passive overvoltage protection circuit that can go after the fuse and before the transformer?

i am guessing it could be a simple as a hi-watt low-ohm resistor in series with the 120 and 2 oppositely oriented zeners of appropriate voltage rating shunting to neutral...?
 
> any simple passive overvoltage protection circuit that can go after the fuse and before the transformer?
i am guessing it could be a simple as a hi-watt low-ohm resistor in series with the 120 and 2 oppositely oriented zeners of appropriate voltage rating shunting to neutral...?


When over-volted, you'd get flat-top waves. That would keep simple DC supplies in check, but lamps would still burn over-bright.

Main problem: small overvoltage gives big dissipation, significant overvoltage gives HUGE dissipation.

OK, say that instead of getting 108V which should be 117V, I got the opposite problem: 126V. And while I should design for the full 20A of the circuit, I may only have 10A online normally. Hmmmmm. I size the resistor for a 9V drop, 9V/10A= 0.9 ohms 90 Watts.

And ASSume it is DC, to avoid sinish complication. And I set a 120V Zener across the line. At 126V dropped to 117V, the Zener sits cold.

But line voltage varies. Backhoes eat underground feeders for lunch. The patch-work is undersize so they tap-up to compensate. The sag varies with load. Say almost 10%, to 138V.

Now the 120V Zener conducts. The 0.9 ohm resistor feels 138V-120V= 18V. It passes current of 18V/0.9= 20A. Say my load still sucks 10A. The other 20A-10A= 10A must flow through the Zener. The Zener dissipates 120V*10A= 1,200 Watts. This is as much as my actual load eats. My electric bill doubles. Another 10% voltage, my Zener runs 3,600W and my bill quadruples (except the fuse should blow). If my load happened to all be off, the Zener is taking 4,800W, maybe for no good reason.

Shunt regulation of varying supply voltage is horribly lossy.

Actively switched resistors work, for overvoltage, with loss proportional to how much you are throwing away. For 10A at 18V over-voltage, 180W, which could be acceptable. However Murphy's Law says that if you design for 20% overvolt, the utility will give you 40% over. If you get into a bad neutral, your dropper may have to be as big as your load.

The classic way to handle large power is an autotransformer. For 1,200W load and 10% over-voltage, we only need a 120VA core. A multi-tapped winding can give 2% increments over any reasonable range. A voltage detector and motor can auto-adjust. Losses will generally be small. As John found, all mechanical contraptions can get stuck. All servo systems can oscillate: we have such a regulator which bumps up and down 2 Volts every 4 seconds all day and all night.

Another technique is a SOLA. This is a resonant transformer with a saturated leg. If the input frequency is right-on (it usually is), then saturation limits the output to 120V for quite a wide range of input (below full power, 95V to 140V). Early ones made very distorted waves; better ones came later. They work good; they are expensive and heavy and hot and loud. They also made them with low-volt windings: I had some OLD transistor computer power supplies where the "5.2VDC" was a lo-volt SOLA, two diodes, and a bunch of BIG caps. Line variations not a problem. Load could sag, but in those days the logic load was mighty constant (none of this modern dynamic power or SpeedStep junk) and not very fussy (5V, 6V, all the same to the logic).

I just picked up a box which both isolates 800VA and steps 12V: from 90V to 140V in gives 112V to 125 out. It uses power transistors to change taps. These don't stick, and can switch at zero-cross, but there are a dozen ICs controlling it and I'm sure they can do the wrong thing. I'm rather tempted to put a big mechanical switch on the taps: I don't have a constantly changing voltage, I have steady low voltage. It matters most on the test bench, where I can check my actual "line" voltage while reading audio power.

A newer way is to use an "audio" amplifier. One made to give many Amps and a few dozen volts of 60Hz. Put the output in series with the line. By adjusting the voltage and phase, it can buck or boost the output, potentially with milliVolt precision (a near-Zero impedance "wall outlet"). Done in linear fashion, it's awful inefficient. At 60Hz, switcher techniques are easy, and many "UPSes" use this method to compensate small line variations.

And that's your answer: use a good UPS. APS brand uses "Line Interactive" to indicate that it actively boost/bucks the line. Every UPS maker has this feature, but not on the $69 junk, and it can be hard to suss out from the glossy sales literature how far up the product line you have to go to get it.

As an extreme, add energy storage. Not just a cut-over for blackout, a full time online battery. Charge the battery from the wall. Invert battery potential back to AC. A large change in wall voltage makes a small change in battery voltage because it stores energy. Another trick is a motor, a flywheel, and an alternator. Motor can't change speed quickly because of the flywheel. (Anyway most AC motors are not much affected by voltage within reason: they turn at line frequency.) The alternator delivers clean steady AC, and its field regulator can fine-trim the voltage. But the cost of such schemes is generally way-too-much.

> trusty old Simpson 260, probably fair.

Great tool. Plenty accurate. Darn near indestructable. But as mentioned, going up and down poles is a tough life. It is a "trust but verify" situation.
 
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