Lucas cs-4 info

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bmaughan

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 15, 2011
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58
Hey everyone, I’m curious if any one has any info on the Lucas Cs-4. Honestly I’ll take any info! .whether it’s technical or anecdotal… I’d love some thoughts .
I get the impression that Oliver was a great guy but might have not had the best reputation when it came to his technical knowledge.. I could be wrong about that though.

It’s been a bit difficult to find anything of substance. I have the opportunity to purchase one that is for sale locally but i hardly know anything about it.
Are the high prices warranted? Any first hand experience?? Does it use the ef802?? Let me know, thanks!!
 
Probably not.
Thanks for the input. I’m take that to mean that the design/sum of the parts don’t add much to the overall value.
Do you have any recommendations for mics that do what the Lucas attempted to do but better?
 
Probably not.
I’m not sure how much of a fair assessment that is. You’re actually probably right, I’m just saying it’s probably more complicated and it’s only up to an individual to assess if it’s worth it to them.

If you really want a CS-4, get the CS-4. It’ll be worth it!
 
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I have a Lucas CS-4 and I love it. They have a great sound, are well-made and unique. I recommend them. The capsule is a Thiersch M7. I really enjoy that sound.

You can see Oliver's notes on this page: https://www.tab-funkenwerk.org/ami-parts/oem-products/
You can find a discussion here: https://gearspace.com/board/high-end/469660-lucas-cs-4-microphone.html

The following information is from http://recordinghacks.com/microphones/lucas/CS-4

Lucas Engineering CS-4
Multi-Pattern Tube Condenser Microphone
The CS-4 is a multipattern tube condenser designed by Oliver Archut and Terry Manning as a contemporary reinterpretation of the “sonically colored” family of microphones descended from the Neumann U-47. The mic is emphatically not presented as a U-47 clone, soundalike, or replacement, but rather as a high-end tube mic that the original Neumann engineers might build today.
The capsule is a PVC-membrane M7, designed and manufactured to match the original Neumann blueprints by former Neumann capsule technician Sigfried Thiersch. Although Thiersch supplies both PVC and Mylar-skinned M7s to numerous manufacturers, the CS-4 capsules are unique in two respects:
• The diaphragms are treated with a moisture repellent to improve performance when close-miking vocals.
• The PVC diaphragm material is aged to meet the NWDR (Nordwestdeutscher Rundfunk) specifications for the Neumann M 49, to ensure the most consistent front-to-back response.
The Thiersch M7, aka the STW7, has a 32mm (OD) backplate. The membranes are made of ~6-micron PVC; the active area of the diaphragm is 25mm.
A rotary switch on the power supply provides 11 discrete polar patterns: figure-of-8, Cardioid, and Omni, with four intermediate (hypercardioid-ish) patterns between Cardioid and Fig-8, and four intermediate (subcardioid-ish) patterns between Cardioid and Omni.
Like the CS-1, U-47, and the Bock Audio 251, the capsule’s rear diaphragm is disconnected from the circuit when the mic is set to Cardioid. This “true Cardioid” mode is said to have a higher signal-to-noise ratio than if both diaphragms were active. It also has higher sensitivity, by about 3dB, than do other patterns. (This was also true of the U-47.)
The mic’s tube is a vintage glass pentode manufactured in Germany by Telefunken. Lucas describes it as “technically identical to, and … very similar in sonic character to, the [U 47’s] VF-14.”
Through Oliver Archut’s connections with former microphone and tube engineers in Germany, Lucas has been successful at locating “forgotten” caches of audio tubes — first the 7000 Mullard 6072a-like dual-triodes used in the CS1, and more recently, several thousand of the glass VF14-like Telefunken tubes used in the CS4.
Lucas Engineering expects to maintain a supply of replacement tubes for registered CS-4 owners for the forseeable future.
The transformer in the CS-4 is manufactured by AMI/Tab-Funkenwerk. It is a version of the company’s BV8, fine-tuned for this specific microphone.
The prototype mic’s headbasket was fabricated by hand from three layers of brass mesh by Oliver Archut, then plated for display at the AES-NYC show in late 2009.
As with the CS-1, the body of the CS-4 is a steel tube finished in the “Lucazite™” process by Jeff Roberts at Latch Lake Products. The physical dimensions of the mic, roughly 63mm x 240mm, match the “long body” style of the U-47.
A maximum of 300 CS-4s will be made. The first units are expected to ship by late Spring 2010.
Additional specifications for this mic are forthcoming.
Permalink: Lucas Engineering CS-4
The mic was released in 2010.
Specifications
Pickup Patterns: 11 Polar Patterns between Omni, Cardioid, Figure-8
Pads & Filters: None
Capsule Dimensions: Diaphragm Diameter: 25mm; Capsule Diameter: 32mm. Diaphragm gauge: 6 microns
Weight: 956g (33.72oz)
Length: 240mm (9.45'')
Max Diameter: 63mm (2.48'')
Connector: 7 pin Tuchel between mic and supply; from the power supply, 3-pin XLR male
Finish: Lucazite
You can see a listing here: https://reverb.com/item/87020492-lucas-cs-4-tube-condenser-microphone-excellent-original-owner
 
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It depends on what you mean by warranted. On sound alone, this is a $2,000 microphone. Which is a huge compliment as most microphones, even many four digit microphones, barely break three digits on sound alone in my opinion. The rest, how much is pedigree and rarity worth to you? I think that you could theoretically commission a nearly identical microphone from a current Boutique builder for about $2,500 and I think that's worth considering if you're after the sound. Or you could build it yourself
 
I would say the world has changed a lot since the Lucas Engineering CS-1 and CS-4 were introduced. They were quite something for their time - custom microphones on par with the best manufacturers. At that time there were no readily available Neumann/AKG knock-offs or available body types. There wasn't an abundance of capsule makers or transformer specialists. People weren't making new tubes. This was a limited edition, handmade microphone made with the best components from the brains of Archut and Manning - two people who knew German mics inside and out, and knew great sound when they heard it. This was something new for the audio professional.

And while today, you may find the same sound quality for less money, I think the $2500 mics I run across today are not the build quality or pedigree of the Lucas Engineering CS-4 or CS-1. Many less expensive microphones today are copies of the "tried and true" technology from Neumann/AKG, etc. And, at least some of them are the results of what Oliver knew about microphones and use the ideas he shared.
 
All these responses are super helpful. You’re all saying what I was kind of thinking. That it’s good, and escoecially good for the time but perhaps not what the scarcity and asking prices could lead one to believe.
That said, do any of you have any recommendations for me in this similar vein? I know that’s a can of worms but are there any mics being made today that are knocking it out of the park?
I have a few on my short list but I’m not able to buy and demo so I kind of just have to make an educated guess :/

Any more input is super appreciated!
 
I think any microphone can be emulated today. The copies may not be 100% like the real thing but are often close enough for most people. Even here (maybe especially here) people experiment endlessly to make the ultimate mic or the perfect copy. No manufactured mic is immune from this. So is buying a $5000 mic worth the money? Maybe. As Soliloqueen has said, you can do very well for $2000 or $2500. In some regards the question to ask is, "What is my Return-on-Investment?"
 
All these responses are super helpful. You’re all saying what I was kind of thinking. That it’s good, and escoecially good for the time but perhaps not what the scarcity and asking prices could lead one to believe.
That said, do any of you have any recommendations for me in this similar vein? I know that’s a can of worms but are there any mics being made today that are knocking it out of the park?
I have a few on my short list but I’m not able to buy and demo so I kind of just have to make an educated guess :/

Any more input is super appreciated!
many boutiques would custom build you something similar on request. signal art, barbaric etc
 
I am not familiar with Barbaric, but in my experience, Signal Art makes a very fine microphone. I have great respect for Chad Kelly's knowledge, craftsmanship and ability. If you decide on a custom mic, I suggest putting one of Soliloqueen's M7 capsules in it. I am confident they are top-notch. They are what I would buy if I were putting an M7 in a microphone.
 
I have the opportunity to purchase one that is for sale locally but i hardly know anything about it.
If the seller lives nearby you should have the opportunity to test it for yourself and decide if it's worth the money. Be critical. The human brain has a tendency to favor the latest stuff you just bought.

If you buy a new tube mic for $2000 it's usually low quality chinese hardware with ok parts inside. I haven't seen or heard a CS-4 in real but I expect more in terms of overall quality.
 
thanks for the recommendations! And yes I agree, easy to have confirmation bias when spending $$$.

I think I could get it for $4k. Still a lot for a mic and like you guys said $2500 goes a bit farther now in mic quality than it did 10-15 years ago.
 
thanks for the recommendations! And yes I agree, easy to have confirmation bias when spending $$$.

I think I could get it for $4k. Still a lot for a mic and like you guys said $2500 goes a bit farther now in mic quality than it did 10-15 years ago.
4k is not a terrible price for the mic tbh, but i would be worried about pvc aging. my previous statement about it being worth $2000 on sound alone is not meant as an insult in any way. $2000 is about the most a microphone can be worth on sound alone, the rest is build quality and pedigree
 
Having come out in 2008, the mics are 17 years old. While I haven't visually inspected the CS-4 capsule, it still sounds great. EDIT: Now that I think of it, I know of a Gefell M7 capsule from the 1990s that is still fine.

Here is what the late Oliver Archut said at the time about the M7:

Mylar vs. PVC durability? If a PVC M7 is treated properly it can live a long time, but in general the PVC membranes are not viewed as durable than Mylar ones.

On the PVC side of the M7 only Mr. Thiersch still uses the original membrane material, a softer variation of the "IG Farben" developed "Igelit" PVC material. Due to the softening agent used to keep it smooth, that it highly toxic (a very potent nerve poison) production ceased in West Germany beginning of the 1960 but was being still made in East Germany up to the fall the the iron curtian.

Microtech Gefell changed at some point to a different PVC material as well as the membrane glue, compared to the M7 made during their RFT times the new ones do sound different.

Best regards,

Oliver


And...

The life spann of PVC M7 can be as long as 60 years in a normal studio environment. I sold several NOS PVC M7s in the last few year that were locked away in an aluminum container and they were like new.
On the other hand I bought a bunch of new M7 (from Gefell) that all died within 5 years some even in their storage container. That far none of my Thiersch M7 show any sign of aging (3 years that far).

It is pretty difficult to get to an final answer what is best for a mic. During the IRT controlled period (1947 to 1990) of german radio every 10 years capsules were replaced mandatory, because of aging, even with the Mylar varieties.
It is also a not a correct statement that Mylar should life forever, that the reason why I add the "technical", over the years I have encountered a bunch of Mylar capsules that started to get wavy and then ruptured for no particular reason. If Mylar would work that great manufactures would have offered a longer warranty.

My verdict, it does not matter the type of capsule, I estimate for myself that 10 year is a good outlook how long a capsule should work, after that replacement is just general maintenance.

Best regards,

Oliver
 
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That’s super interesting… I guess I never realized that PVC failure is just a matter of time.
So are most of these vintage M7 capsules on the market reskinned?

Also, I had read about Oliver putting some sort of hydrophobic coating on the diaphragms… I wonder if that might end up helping or hurting the pvc aging issue..??
 
I've not heard of the hydrophobic coating. But I could have missed that.

Here is more about the M7 itself. What follows below is from Klaus Heyne at www.germanmasterworks.com To read the original page, use this link:
https://articles.germanmasterworks.com/advice/what-is-an-m7-capsule

What Is An "M7" Capsule?​


This is only a short history of the M7. (For additional info, check some of the Microtech Gefell sites.)

The M7's history, design and description is a bit confusing, because neither Neumann/Berlin nor Neumann/Gefell, the two legitimate companies that legitimately can claim having manufactured the original M7 PVC capsule, ever bothered to trademark "M7".
So now several manufacturers freely use the term without necessarily much regard for authenticity towards the original M7's features, dimensions or materials, let alone sound.

To distinguish:

1. The original (Neumann East/West/Gefell) M7 capsules were made with PVC diaphragms (ca. 8-10µ thick) - the only version that in my estimation can legitimately be called "authentic". With few exceptions (see below) it still has the dimensions, and material characteristics of the original invented in the 1930s. But through the years and location of manufacture, versions of the brass back plate design vary slightly in build, and therefore, in tone and character.

For identification, there are slight design differences among and between Neumann Berlin and Gefell back plates. One is visible at the outer edge of the diaphragm: post-war Neumann/Berlin M7 feature three distinct ridges (bearing edges), where the Gefell M7 to this day have two, just as those found in pre-WWII M7. Then there are different gaps between the ridges and widths of the grooves in between, as well. Another difference is how the sack-holes are arranged. The easiest way to visually distinguish Gefell from Berlin M7 is the center lead-out screw, which is tiny in the Gefell version - .2mm smaller compared to the M7 made in Berlin

2. Various manufacturers (including Gefell) make an M7-looking capsule, using an M7-inspired or copied brass backplate, but using the much easier to manufacture Mylar/Polyester/"PE"- diaphragm (mostly 6µ thin) instead of the laborious PVC diaphragm which only a small handful of specialists know how to cast.

In the case of Gefell, at least the brass backplate of this polyester capsule is "100% original M7", whereas all other manufacturers copy, more or less successfully, that backplate design.

But there comes another problem for copycats: what was magic synergy between an 8-10µ PVC diaphragm with a peculiar resonance behavior and the original backplate construction sounds at best mediocre, often coarse and strident when combining that backplate design with a modern 6µ polyester diaphragm: the sound is off, decidedly not magic, and all those who copy that particular diaphragm/backplate combination end in a cul-de-sac with no way out.

If you want the sound of a true M7 today, there is only one way to get it: Buy one of the very few, still intact, old stock Neumann/Berlin PVC M7 (made up until 1959), or a Gefell PVC M7 made until about 2005. (Current M7 PVC capsules by Microtech Gefell exhibit noticeable low-end loss, and other timbre changes, due to new PVC material they are using, and the retirement of the long-serving specialist who used to cast their membranes.)

Everything else, including Gefell's valiant effort of marrying the M7 backplate and diaphragm dimensions with modern diaphragm material using pre-manufactured polyester films, will most definitely sound different.

Oliver Archut added this bit of history:

"I would include as "original M7" - those made by MWL (Mechanische Werkstätten Lensaal) from 1945 to 1947 for the NWDR. (North West German Radio.) Because after the war the Neumann company was now located in Soviet-occupied Germany, with no access to their West German customers, MWL made these M7s for the (West German) broadcasters to the original Neumann blueprints.
After Georg Neumann moved from temporary headquarters in Gefell back to (West) Berlin, MWL stopped production. Aside of the markings on the MWL capsules, these M7s are absolute identical to the Berlin-made M7 capsules before 1942."

And David Satz has much to add about the date of introduction and its true inventors:
Just for the record, I know of no particular evidence that the so-called "M 7" capsule was designed by Neumann and/or Kühnast, nor do I know of any evidence that would support the 1932 date even though Neumann still gives it in their chart. I say "so-called" because names of the type "M 7" and "M 8" were the Reichsrundfunkgesellschaft's way of referring to complete microphones, not capsules, to which they had granted type acceptance for purchase by broadcasting organizations within the Reich. Neumann's own names for these capsule types were CM 8 and CM 7 respectively. (Yes, the figure-8 came first.)

No microphones with these capsule types appear in any catalogs or price lists that I've seen or heard of prior to 1936. Until then, all Neumann condenser microphone capsules were single-diaphragm, diffuse-field-equalized pressure transducers. We might call them "omnidirectional" except that they were so large, their pickup pattern started to become narrow already in the upper range of voice frequencies. This general type of capsule (based on the classic Western Electric designs) dominated the condenser microphone market for its first 20+ years, but has faded into obscurity in the stereophonic era.

The actual inventors of the two capsule types were almost certainly Dr. Hans Joachim von Braunmühl and Walter Weber, working at the RRG. They patented both designs in 1935 (the first page of the German patent is attached)--or actually, there seems to have been a March, 1935 filing for just the figure-8 capsule design, which was then superseded in September by the filing for both designs. The next month the same two researchers explained the workings of the capsules at length in an article published in the journal Hochfrequenztechnik und Elektroakustik. (I wanted to attach several scans from this article, but the board's maximum file size for the sum of all attachments to any one message has somehow gotten set to only 512 KB, so there's only room for the first few paragraphs.)

These same two men also wrote a textbook, Einführung in die Angewandte Akustik (Introduction to Applied Acoustics), the manuscript of which was handed in to the publisher S. Hirzel in Leipzig right around when the above article was published. It's a snapshot of a particular moment in condenser microphone history: Its section on condenser microphones mentions only pressure transducers, and features a photo of a Neumann bottle microphone with a pressure capsule--but then at the end of the subchapter on microphones, a section seems to have been added in at the last minute describing pressure-gradient condenser microphones and saying that they'd been developed only quite recently ("in neuester Zeit"). No photos of any such capsules, or microphones using them, are shown in the book, however, while the Hochfrequenztechnik und Elektroakustikarticle shows prototype capsules that don't look like they're from Neumann.

None of that is consistent with their already having been introduced commercially some years before. Maybe most people don't care very much about history, but that's no excuse for perpetuating false history.

P.S.: I've seen many dozens of photos of Neumann bottle mikes being used before the end of World War II, but all the photos clear enough to allow the capsules to be identified show pressure capsules (CM 5 or CM 9). Does anyone know of any clear photos showing an M 7 (or for that matter an M 8) being used on a CMV 3a prior to 1945, other than catalog photos? It seems as if the M 7 may have achieved substantial use only once it was incorporated into the U 47 microphone of the postwar era, but I don't know whether that conclusion is supportable or not; it's just an "I wonder" kind of thing.
Published on 2024-06-17 00:55:00
 
i do know of a source for the correct pvc material. there are plenty of developing countries that still use banned plasticizers and ancient casting methods. but i am not putting myself or anyone who works for me at risk of heart failure just to make a microphone capsule lol. personally if i can't find a good film replacement for the m7 i just won't make it. the k47 is perfectly fine and very amenable to modification
 
i do know of a source for the correct pvc material. there are plenty of developing countries that still use banned plasticizers and ancient casting methods. but i am not putting myself or anyone who works for me at risk of heart failure just to make a microphone capsule lol. personally if i can't find a good film replacement for the m7 i just won't make it. the k47 is perfectly fine and very amenable to modification
Interesting. So just handling it is dangerous? Or does it become aerosolized at some point in the capsule production process?
genuinely curious..
 
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