M/S Matrix

[AudioJunkie]

Hey guys,

While I'm bored and broke, was comtemplating my next project. Once I finish my G7's (if I ever get enough money to do so), I'd love to use them for some Mid-Side recording. Liked Jakob's matrix better than Jensen or Sowter because it only uses 2 Trafos instead of 4.

http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/klarinet_18/detail?.dir=9ef2&.dnm=3a1d.jpg

But there are so many 1+1:1+1 and 1:1+1 trafos out there I am clueless as to which one I should use. I was planning on using Lundahls, but more than willing to consider others.

And this I could simply plug in between my mic pre and recorder, correct?

Any other better options?
Daniel

 

[zebra50]

If you have three channels to spare you can do this without special hardware. Record the 'mid' (cardioid) on one channel & pan to centre. Record the 'side' fig 8 mic to two channels (or duplicate a channel if you're digital), pan one fully left. Reverse the phase of the other and pan fully right. Adjust relative volumes to taste. This gives M+S on left and M-S on right channel.

z50.

 

[soundguy]

hey daniel-

if you dont have a big budget to work with, you might consider not building a matrix at all. The real joy of recording ms for me is decoding it later in the mix. most of the guys I know that swear by ms all seem to share my opinion on that. If you record it discrete M-S, you can decode it to XY in your mix by multing the side mic to two channels on the console and flipping the phase on one channel to get your stereo image, those two panned left/right with the mono mic at 12 O'clock. I have tried many active MS matrixes over the years and they are most certainly not created equal and after much experimenting, I tend to lately prefer just decoding it as mentioned above on the console and not using an active matrix at all, its a lousy source of coloration IMO and some boxes just have miserable stereo imagining for what they are supposed to do...

Or you can build the best MS to XY decoder ever made, which would be cool too, but thought Id mention an alternative if you are strapped for cash.

cheers

dave

 

[AudioJunkie]

Yeah,

I know about the console method. But I don't use a console. Don't even have a mixer any more. Most of my recording (what little that is) is recitals or concerts where I only have time to throw up a stereo pair, check levels, and go. I only carry mics, stand, cables, preamp and recorder (and backup).

Even if I had a mixer, the best I would be able to afford would be a a small Mackie or Soundcraft. And right now, mixer is near the bottom of my list of things to buy - right after better mics, better preamp, and better recorder.

And at the rate my job hunt is going, it will be a while before I can afford to take upgrade any thing. Still trying to get enough money to build my G7's.

So that's why I was thinking about an M/S Matix in a box.

Daniel

 

[rafafredd]

you can always do it in the box also...

 

[zebra50]

What do you record to? If it's digital then, as rafa says, you can always just record the two separately and sort it out afterwards. But if you're just going straight to 2-track analogue then I guess you have to have a matrix.

 

[Scodiddly]

An M/S rig only has two outputs - Mid and Side. A fair number of engineers just record those instead of stereo, and matrix it later in post-production. There are software plugins for this, too. I myself do it that way, I've got a little homebrewed M/S mic with a battery box so I can record to minidisc. Later at home I can set the stereo width on my own monitors.

 

[AudioJunkie]

Right now I record to direct to CD (MD backup). Eventually I'd like to go to hard drive/multitrack. So I don't necessarily need to go through a M/S Matrix when recording.

I've always heard people say that the software M/S decoders were not very good. And as stated earlier, I don't have a mixer/console to do the doublng+invert side mic method.

Daniel

 

[NewYorkDave]

You could always try PAIA's simple circuit, then upgrade to something fancier later on, if necessary.
http://www.paia.com/msdecwrk.htm
This could be built on a piece of perfboard in an afternoon.

 

[zebra50]

[quote author="AudioJunkie"]
I've always heard people say that the software M/S decoders were not very good. [/quote]

There is no mathematical reason why they shouldn't be identical to the double-and-pan method. No complex messy alogrithms here - I suspect it's a myth (unless the programmers are really inept!).

 

[Marik]

[quote author="soundguy"]hey daniel-

if you dont have a big budget to work with, you might consider not building a matrix at all. The real joy of recording ms for me is decoding it later in the mix. most of the guys I know that swear by ms all seem to share my opinion on that. If you record it discrete M-S, you can decode it to XY in your mix by multing the side mic to two channels on the console and flipping the phase on one channel to get your stereo image, those two panned left/right with the mono mic at 12 O'clock. I have tried many active MS matrixes over the years and they are most certainly not created equal and after much experimenting, I tend to lately prefer just decoding it as mentioned above on the console and not using an active matrix at all, its a lousy source of coloration IMO and some boxes just have miserable stereo imagining for what they are supposed to do...

Or you can build the best MS to XY decoder ever made, which would be cool too, but thought Id mention an alternative if you are strapped for cash.

cheers

dave[/quote]

Couldn't agree more!
Re: plugins. If you work with protools or similar program, you actually even don't need plugin.
Copy the Side on another track and invert its phase. Then mix it.

Very often I am in the same situation--"on a fly" concert recordings. The PAIA matrix would be a very cheap and easy solution here (I have one). Just make sure you use good signal caps. You can do it on a perf board. In fact I had a transformer matrix, but dropped it, as you loose width control.

 

[SSLtech]

Here's a solution I was getting round to testing...

Well...

-getting round to building....

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v379/SSLtech/msmatrix.jpg

Anyway, you see the idea I'm sure... It makes M/S from stereo, and stereo from M/S.... if I haven't messed it up...

Keith

(edit: link correction...)

 

[Marik]

[quote author="SSLtech"]Here's a solution I was getting round to testing...

Well...

-getting round to building....

http://photobucket.com/albums/v379/SSLtech/?action=view&current=msmatrix.jpg

Anyway, you see the idea I'm sure... It makes M/S from stereo, and stereo from M/S.... if I haven't messed it up...

Keith[/quote]

Hey Keith,

It asks for password. Can you give us one?

 

[rafafredd]

The server asks for password to show the pic.

 

[SSLtech]

Should be fixed now...

My credit card number, in case anyone wants it, is....

-Hold on, that's the phone....

:wink:

Keef

 

[Marik]

[quote author="SSLtech"]Should be fixed now...

My credit card number, in case anyone wants it, is....

-Hold on, that's the phone....

:wink:

Keef[/quote]

Nope, still the same...
So what was your credit card# ?

 

[SSLtech]

Make sure you;re clicking on my corrected link, and not the one in your quote box, which still has the old link in it.... :wink:

1234-5678-9012-3456,

the expiration date is January 2nd, 3456 (I have a long time before this baby expires!!!) :twisted:

Keef

 

[Marik]

[quote author="SSLtech"]Make sure you;re clicking on my corrected link, and not the one in your quote box, which still has the old link in it.... :wink:

1234-5678-9012-3456,

the expiration date is January 2nd, 3456 (I have a long time before this baby expires!!!) :twisted:

Keef[/quote]

Thanks--got it!

...Just in case, is it Visa or Mastercard

 

[SSLtech]

MasterRace....

-Priceless!

 

[wilcofan]

Do you guys think powering this thing would be tricky?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=29950&item=3753941846&rd=1

I've been recording M-S for a year now without an encoder and making stereo in the DAW. Problem for me is it's hard to judge proximity and vibe when the signal isn't encoded while tracking. I'm totally down with avoiding bad sound just to encode but this thing looks cool...

Bob