Mic Transformers: Low Ratio or High?

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rlaury

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 5, 2004
Messages
331
Location
Nashville, Tn
Hi Group:

Aside from the gain advantage, Does anyone have an opinion on what mic transformer ratio sounds better? I have the option of using a 1:5, 1:7 or a 1:10. Considering the noise resistance makes me lean toward the 1:10. But I'm thinking the 1:5 will sound better. I plan on doing actual listening test and see for myself, but I'm interested in the groups experiences.

TIA
 
Ermmmmm....

That can't really be answered in terms of '1:5 sounds better than.....'

All depends on the circuit, and the transformer types, how loud your source is, and the output impedence of the mic itself. It would help if you described the rest of ypur design and setup.

EDIT: sorry are you talking mic output or mic pre input? It still helps to know the circuit.
Stewart
 
Ron,

When are you going to get two of those tube prototype boards to me?
I have been waiting for two months for them. You have $104 of mine
and I have not gotten anything. I have contacted in email four times
and left a message for you. Are you running a shady business?

Tamas
 
Gain is now cheap.

For distortion: use an ample core of carefully selected material.

For noise: you MUST know the noise characteristics of your amplifier. There is both voltage noise and current noise. High voltage step-up reduces the effect of one but increases the effect of the other. An LM301 with a 1:15 step-up transformer has more noise than the same LM301 with a 1:7 transformer. With some of the high-current audio amps, a high step-up ratio will ruin your noise figure. The example cited is an early chip mixer: they were still in tube-think where noise current is nil and step-up always reduced effective noise.

For frequency response: wind enough primary turns to meet your low end goal. When you pick a turns ratio, the secondary will also meet low end goal.

In the high end: some primary flux misses the secondary. We call this leakage inductance. It is proportional to the main inductance (or turns squared). It acts as an inductor in series with the secondary. This with the input impedance of the amplifier causes a high-end roll-off. Since we can usually make the amplifier input impedance very high, this alone would not be a problem.

But a transformer also has capacitance. And this does not change much with number of turns: it is just the area of the winding.

The leakage inductance and the capacitance form a resonant filter, and cause a peak at the top of the transformer bandwidth. As you increase the turns ratio and number of secondary turns, you increase the leakage inductance while the capacitance stays the same. The peak frequency becomes lower as the turns ratio increases.

In practice, we find that nominal impedances below 1K with hi-Z loading are quite flat beyond the audio band, nominal impedances above 10K tend to show peaking, and designing a winding to work at nominal impedance above 50K with hi-fi response is tough, sometimes impossible.

So in general, 150:600 or 200:2,000 or 150:2,400 are "smooth flat", and 200:20K will need careful attention to frequency response.

And yet... sometimes when doing funky tracks, a ringy transformer sounds better.
 
Sorry to be so vague. The circuit is a tube input micpre stage.
The bandwith is wider on the lower ratios. But were talking say
50Khz insted of 42Khz. Either one is wide enough. I was just wondering
if it's better to stay with the lower ratio. It's really hard to tell the
difference with out actually setting them up on a piano or a really good
singer and A/B them side by side.

ronL
 
> a 5534 op amp preamp noise is minimal when a 150:5K transformer is used.

The optimum audio-band noise impedance for 5534 is I think 6K, and broad enough so that 2K or 15K isn't much different. 5K is a nice standard number.

> With tubes a 30 to 50K secondary is typical.

In the audio band (RF is different), tube current noise is nearly zero, so optimum noise impedance is nearly infinity.(*) However a near-infinity impedance transformer winding will have near-zero treble response. Over 100K is done in some PA amps, 20K to 50K is more reasonable for hi-fi response.

(*) It isn't always necessary to aim for the "optimum" noise impedance. When current noise is small, we merely need to step-up the source votlage noise to be "much greater than" the amplifier voltage noise. We can just make them equal and get a 3dB noise figure which is plenty good enough for rock-n-roll, better than most studios' background acoustic noise. If amplifier noise is half of source noise, the noise figure is 1dB, and any further "improvement" is inaudible.

The noise of a simplified tube is like the total cathode resistance, including 1/transconductance (1/Gm). For a typical preamp tube the Gm is about 1,000 microMhos, so 1/Gm is about 1,000 ohms. The random thermal noise of a 1,000 ohm resistor across the audio band at room temperature is about 0.5 microvolts. But this "resistor" lives at the cathode surface, where it is MUCH hotter than room temperature. Noise voltage will tend to be 3 times higher, or 1.5 microvolts. The random thermal noise of a 200 ohm microphone is about 0.2 microvolts. We want a step-up to make this about twice the tube's noise, or about 3 microvolts at the tube. 0.2/3= 1:15 step-up ratio. But this implies (200ohms)*(15^2)= 45,000 ohm secondary. If we just assume 100pFd capacitance (winding and grid), then we will be down 3dB at 35KHz, -1dB at 17KHz, a marginal performance. WHen we actually wind it, the leakage inductance will probably ring at the top of the audio band. Tricks to reduce leakage inductance also increase capacitance. 45K windings are tough audio problems. We can get better response specs with maybe 1:10 turns ratio. Noise figure is 2dB, not too shabby. Secondary impedance is 20K, which is a little easier than 50K. And the lower number of turns allows use of fatter less-breakable wire, which can be a major cost issue. Don't say "money is no object": it always is a factor. The bucks saved on a less expensive winding can be put into a fatter power supply, allowing use of a fatter tube at higher current, more Gm, lower noise voltage.

Oh: and if you use condenser mikes with built-in amplifiers: none of the above noise-calcs should matter. While a dynamic mike's noise may be 0.2 microvolt, many condenser mikes spit out 1 microvolt of noise. They can get away with this because their output level is 5 times higher than a dynamic. But that means the "mike preamp" in your board or rack is NOT the input of the system, is NOT the noise-critical point; the amp inside the mike is the critical point. Your board/rack is now a "line receiver". Working at lower levels than a standard line level, but far above the levels of a dynamic mike. A 10dB noise figure in the board/rack "mike preamp" will not raise the system noise.

> It's really hard to tell the difference with out actually setting them up on a piano or a really good singer and A/B them side by side.

Theory is not enough. There are many subtle poorly understood details in transformer behavior. The only way you can judge the relative merits of two trannies that don't suck is to try them on a variety of real sounds.
 
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