Mineral Spirits = White Spirit = Terpentin(ersatz)?

[rock soderstrom]

Hi guys, I'm currently building a lot with wood and there is always the question of surface treatment.

In american Youtube tutorials, the woodworkers often talk about Mineral Spirits.

Here's my question: Is the american Mineral Spirits the same as White Spirit in the UK? Are both odorless? What would be the German equivalent? Geruchsloser Terpentin(ersatz)?

Is it possible that White Spirit in the USA is equivalent to what we call "Waschbenzin" in Germany?

Chemistry always confuses me a bit

 

[Gold]

I don’t know the chemistry but in the US mineral oil is sold as food safe. I don’t know if mineral spirits is different than mineral oil. Mineral oil is good for butcher blocks and lubricant for metal that contacts food.

 

[shabtek]

mineral spirits is petro based solvent in the US, terpentine is similar but made from pine tar, neither is odorless, terpentine smells good IMO.
'odorless' mineral spirits have less fumes. I use spirits for thinning oil finishes and cleaning brushes.
UK white spirit may be denatured alcohol IDK.--it is used to clean wood and dissolve /thin shellac.
some good info here:
https://www.highlandwoodworking.com/free-woodworking-tips.aspxfood for thought:
https://thewoodwhisperer.com/articles/make-your-own-oil-varnish-blend/

 

[PermO]

In the Netherlands it's sort of the same I guess;

Terpentine = petrol based solvent (don't use on wood)
Terpentijn = natural solvent from pine (illegal to buy / import, smells nice, eats braincells (painters disease) (good for cleaning wood, fretboard cleaning)

Don't know what the US equivalent of Wasbenzine will be ?

My favorite treatment for wood is linseed oil, brings out the texture and has a bit of a golden shine to it.

 

[rock soderstrom]

Thanks guys for the answers!
I have the impression that the names for the different types of solvent are used internationally somewhat confusingly.

The second link from Shabtek, describes exactly what my application is. Very interesting and at the same time relaxing, because it seems not that important what we use as thinner:
"The standard mixture is 1/3 Boiled Linseed Oil or Tung Oil, 1/3 thinner (mineral spirits, paint thinner, turpentine, naptha), and 1/3 varnish (poly, spar, etc..)."

Very good, I will make my own mixture tomorrow. I think Linseed Oil is great, on some woods the highlighting of the grain and the orange tint is a bit too strong. That's why I prefer Tung oil in a Danish oil kind of way.

Hard wax oils like Rubio onecoat, Odie's and Osmo are also great but unfortunately pretty
expensive, too.

 

[cyrano]

I don’t know the chemistry but in the US mineral oil is sold as food safe. I don’t know if mineral spirits is different than mineral oil. Mineral oil is good for butcher blocks and lubricant for metal that contacts food.

Mineral oil isn't "food safe" in Europe. The reason is wooden (steamed beech) cutting boards aren't allowed for professional kitchen use. Plastic boards don't need to be oiled, obviously.

It's a case where the EU's scientific committee couldn't explain why steamed beech has such excellent anti-bacterial qualities. And in their mind, no explanation equals black magic or something, so it isn't allowed.

I still only use beech cutting boards, but wouldn't think about using mineral oil, as there are plenty of other oils. In fact, if I have vegetable oil that has gone off, I use it to oil cutting boards. Yes, I'm cheap, sometimes.

Strangely, bamboo and "banana wood" are allowed. "Banana wood" is a commercial name for a very light water repellant wood. I've got no idea what it is exactly, as in my mind, it's useless as a cutting board. It has NO anti-bacterial properties, so it doesn't need an explanation...

I've always been told line seed oil is the best for treating wood, unless you live in an area where the wood needs protection from insects, in which case tea tree oil is better.

 

[Gold]

Butcher block here can be made out of different woods. Oak and maple are the woods I see most. My workbenches are maple butcher block. I don’t know about commercial kitchen regulations. Mineral oil bottles usually say food safe here. I know that high density polyethylene (HDPE) is the most common cutting board material here.

 

[cyrano]

I am descended from over twenty generations of butchers. I have always been told only steamed beech should be used for chopping blocks. It wasn't until 1990 or so until I discovered its rare properties.

The same goes for smoking meat: the base is beech sawdust and onion peels, only laced with a bit of pine, oak or hickory. My grandfather was very precise about that, getting really upset when sawdust from other species came in.

Professional kitchens these days can only use HDPE. A very bad thing for cutting boards as micro particles end up in your food. A very recent survey showed most people even have micro plastics in their blood.

EDIT: literally 5 seconds after I wrote the above, this showed up in my reading list:

https://www.hull.ac.uk/work-with-us...microplastics-in-deepest-section-of-the-lungs

 

[Gold]

I am descended from over twenty generations of butchers. I have always been told only steamed beech should be used for chopping blocks. It wasn't until 1990 or so until I discovered its rare properties.

I wonder if the beech where you are is the same spices as here? We have beech but there is an invasive mite that is killing them. In the NE US. We have a couple in the mountains that are nice.

The same goes for smoking meat: the base is beech sawdust and onion peels, only laced with a bit of pine, oak or hickory. My grandfather was very precise about that, getting really upset when sawdust from other species came in.

In the US many different hard woods are used for smoking meat, fish and poultry. I’ve never heard of sawdust being used. I’ve never heard of softwoods being used like pine. I’m no expert though.

Cedar has great anti microbial properties. It is used for construction. I know the sawdust and smoke is poisonous though.

 

[k brown]

True turpentine is not petrol-based - it was originally distilled from the bark of the terebinth tree. In recent times (especially the junk that's sold at hardware stores and home centers) it has been made from all sorts of random wood waste, which is why it no longer has the wonderful scent that older people remember from decades ago. All forms are very toxic and best avoided. In old wood finishing recipes that call for it, mineral spirits (MS) can usually be substituted, but not always. For example Damar resin will not disolve in MS - there may be others. If the finish is just a mixture of turps and any kind of oil, most of the time MS can be subbed just fine (though less is used proportionally, as it is more thinning than turps).

An art supply company started producing many years ago a product they call 'Turpenoid', which is merely mineral spirits; nothing to do with turpentine at all, except that they intended it to be usd as a replacement for turps. Then they later came out with something called 'Turpenoid Natural', which has nothing to do with either turpentine OR mineral spirits, but is a mysterious, rather viscous solvent that seems to be some sort of mixture of orange oil and lord knows what else (great for cleaning dried paint out of brushes, though). Supposed to be non-toxic.

To confuse matters even further, some finishes call for Venice Turpentine (which is from the larch tree), which really isn't a solvent, but an oleo resin. Much more common in oil painting mediums than wood finishes.

There are three basic forms of mineral spirits (sometimes called Stoddard solvent), which IS petrol-based (hydrocarbons): MIneral Spirits (MS), Odorless Mineral Spirits (OMS) and artist grade OMS, sold in art supply stores (I use Gamblin). OMS is more refined, has less smell (not really odorless), and evaporates more slowly so for a given length of time of exposure, less is inhaled. Artist grade (especially the Gamblin brand) is truly odorless and evaporates even more slowly so is the safest to use, as far as respiratory effects go.

I've always had the impression that White Spirits is mineral spirits, not alchohol.

Mineral oil and mineral spirits have nothing in common, except for being petroleum-based. Mineral oil is, well - oil; a lubricant.
Mineral spirits is a solvent that dissolves oils.

For general wood finish, you should give this a try:
https://www.amazon.com/Wood-Welded-Emmets-Stuff-Finish/dp/B0000DD2S2It's an oil/urethane/wax blend, and very easy to apply - just rub it on and buff. Nice soft lustre.
Possibly the finest custom picture framer in the Western US, after many years of experimentation now uses this exclusively on his frames (mostly White Oak).
https://www.holtonframes.com/

 

[rock soderstrom]

Thanks for the extensive explanation and the links!

"Emmet's Good Stuff" seems to be exactly the kind of finish I favor. Just apply with a lint free cotton rag and buff it. It couldn't be easier, just right for me. The results achieved look high quality and very natural.

 

[cyrano]

I wonder if the beech where you are is the same spices as here? We have beech but there is an invasive mite that is killing them. In the NE US. We have a couple in the mountains that are nice.

Fagus sylvatica is native to Europe. Fagus grandifolia is the US species, but I don't know if it has the same properties.

In the US many different hard woods are used for smoking meat, fish and poultry. I’ve never heard of sawdust being used. I’ve never heard of softwoods being used like pine. I’m no expert though.

I've invested quite some time in researching the subject, when I was writing about food. There are numerous variations. I've even encountered recipies using poisonous stuff. Smoking isn't good for your health anyway.

Cedar has great anti microbial properties. It is used for construction. I know the sawdust and smoke is poisonous though.

Exactly. Just like Tea tree (Melaleuca alternifolia). That doesn't stop mankind of looking at Tea tree oil as something that's good for the skin. It is, if you suffer from lice, flees, or scabies. If not, don't use it, unless you are in a region that has a lot of parasites that invade through the skin.

Sawdust works better because of smaller particles. Obviously, it's also cheaper, but you need to find a carpenter that's willing to collect it without mixing with other species. And that's a major problem.

The most important thing is that you want smoke, but no fire. That's easier with sawdust than with wood.

Some pictures on the net suggest that a lot of people smoking meat are rather producing semi-roasted meat. I've even seen chefs doing it wrong, with very unhealthy results. It's not necessarily bad, but it's not traditionally smoked either.

Of course, industrial production is more like painting than smoking and is potentially far worse.

 

[rock soderstrom]

Hi cyrano and gold, your topic is really interesting but has absolutely nothing to do with the thread title.

My questions are not about foodsave finish, butcher blocks and smoking meat. Please make a separate thread for that, I'm happy to read it, but for overview reasons it would be better to post here on the actual topic. Thank you very much.

 

[shabtek]

beech is used in the production of (US) budweiser. as I understand it, the fibrous end-grain is used to trap yeast sediment making for a cleaner clearer beverage.

oh sorry Rock, I thought I was in the brewery and we were talking spirits

 

[rock soderstrom]

oh sorry Rock, I thought I was in the brewery and we were talking spirits

 

[shabtek]

Mmm smoked meats and beer

Anybody try soaking the gout toe in terps?

 

[Gold]

I’ve used Tung oil as a wood finish. The classic use is on Teak wood. I used it on birch ply wood and liked how it came out.

 

[shabtek]

real "pure" tung oil or the stuff with solvents from the hardware store?

I've used the pure stuff on oak handrail and it is nice to touch, has not required recoating /maintenance after initial few coats

I put it on a pine amp cabinet and it does not seem as good, maybe it was old or did not cure right but I did several coats with a few days between. seems to have a chalky/dullness when abraded. maybe it needs to be buffed

a rustic colorant I like on pine is gilsonite (asphalt) disolved in terpentine finished with blo

 

[k brown]

Yes, most of the so-called 'Tung Oils' on the market (like Watco) contain no actual tung oil.

 

[Rusan]

Yes, most of the so-called 'Tung Oils' on the market (like Watco) contain no actual tung oil.

That's crazy, isn't it? Formby's and Minwax are the best known "tung oil" brands in the US, and both are nothing more than an old-fashioned oil varnish. Nothing wrong with that, but don't call it tung oil.

Though not a true "drying oil" like pure tung oil or pure refined (raw) linseed oil, I've used Watco Danish Oil with great success. It soaks into the wood and cures hard in a few days, and is waterproof, durable, clean to the touch and doesn't become sticky.