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yep, yep..thats what those series RC networks between grid and plate of the outputs look like they are there for... stability.

Im sure his FB winding is the same z. I should have the same amout of FB.
Just curious.

Aha 10% rockin, thanks. The resistors it loads into are crucial as is the divider, but thats good info.
Lar'
 
I know someone who might have the winding data on that CTC iron.
And he has an original 670.
I will drop him an email.
I have some Sowter outputs that I could put on the bench, but I might get different results in an out of circuit test, since itis a power output.

Yes, everything on the sec side of that transformer was picked by trial and error.
I imagine that applies to that feedback network also.

Hmm, Sowter says the output on that control iron is 600. Seems like you would want the 4 ohm for lower impedance, but then your voltage would drop. Narma says he wanted the control voltage way larger than the signal voltage.

Cool on those RC squelchers. Never payed much attention to those. Maybe you could do without them with the Sowters.


cj
 
He also did this 150 watt power amp.
It is under the Gotham schematics at

http://www.one-electron.com/FC_ProAudio.html

not to clear, but interesting from a historical viewpoint as it was done around the same time as the 670.
 
Totally differential from input to output. and a big, honkin pair of 811-a transmitter tubes. yeah! Gimme a pair for my living room.

Looks like cathode follower bootstrapping to get the drive voltage to the 811's up without a driver transformer.
 
To find any AES papers written by a particular author, go to
http://www.aes.org/e-lib/
Scroll down to the bottom and enter the author's last name in the "Author" field.

Larrchild, the difference in decibels between the open- and closed-loop gains is the amount of feedback. For instance, if I disconnect a feedback loop and the gain doubles, the amp had 6dB of feedback.

Chris, how is Mr. Narma's first name pronounced? Is it "Rain" or "Reen" or something else? I've wondered about that for a while.
 
> basically what he did was take the 70 volt PA system output (600 ohm) of a standard push pull output xfmr of the day and use that..

No, and you know why. The "impedance of 70V" depends on the power. For a 70 Watt amp, the 70V tap needs a 70Ω load. For this ~10 Watt amp, if it were a 70V tap, it happens to be 500Ω.

But 600Ω windings were very common as Program Amplifiers. Given +8dBm telco line level, 16dB headroom to rated power, rated power about 10dB below clipping, 6dB pads on all lines, you need about a 8-10 watt amplifier. Rated low-THD at 1W/+30dBm, 200mW/+24dBm (+8dBm plus 16dB headroom) on the line, 6dB pad, 10dB below clipping, that's a 10 Watt amp. Couple 6V6.

> 70 volts sounds good for the grids. lol

Around that much is needed. Look at the 6386 data sheet, page 3, you need 40V or more to sink the Gm very low. It isn't that simple: the 6386s are pre-biased to keep them below the kink at ~500uMho, the rectifier is pre-biased to stay off for small signals. And if the rectifier amp saturates, the peak escapes to ruin the disk cut; better to wham those grids so hard the 6386 cuts-off and flats the peak. I don't recall what I figured but it was OTOO 50V-70V needed from the rectifier.

We get the required drive power/impedance from the attack/release resistors. I do not have the Fairchild plans on me, but the calc is something like:

We have eight leaky grids, so the DC path from grids to grid bias voltage must be about 1Meg/8= 125K; in fact it uses 220K. This is also our maximum release resistor. The largest ratio of attack to (short-peak) release is 12,500. So the output impedance of amp and rectifier "should be" 17 ohms. If we also needed 50V peak, we'd need 50^2/17= 147 Watts peak (75W RMS). In fact we never want max GR in a single cycle. We don't feed peaks 20dB over threshold and expect brick-wall flattening. The specs mention 10dB reduction, a reasonable maximum for reasonable mastering.

Actually, for more than small GR, the Narma limiter is current-limited on attack. Figure the maximum current a 6V6 will deliver at zero grid and ~200V G2. Multiply by transformer ratio. Your rectifier driver must approximate that max current level.

> I should have the same amout of FB.

The amount of feedback is not critical, isn't even any kind of constant:

If indeed the 12AX7 is biased to class B, then below threshold there is no gain, thus no feedback.

When the 12AX7 starts working, the amp forward gain depends on the load. The load is a rectifier-capacitor thingie. If the instant audio voltage is less than any stored charge on the cap, the load is infinite. The 6V6 has large output impedance, and for large load impedance its gain is large. When the instant audio voltage is greater than any stored charge on the cap, the load is low impedance, actually a large capacitor. 6V6 gain is low, and darned hard to calculate.

The net effect seems to be that the output impedance at the core is much much lower than 600Ω, as you would expect from 12BH7-6V6 cascode with about 1/4 feedback from a 150Ω or 600Ω winding. 15*10*0.3*0.25 is about 20dB of NFB, a reasonable value for something with iron in it. The amp output impedance at the iron is like 60Ω, the output winding adds ~30Ω, at high current the diodes may be 10Ω; we have about a 100Ω source when not current limited. 2uFd and 100Ω in position 1 gives 0.2 milliSeconds, just what the spec says. If you use almost any sort of tube amp with NFB and 600Ω transformer, you will be in that ballpark. If you use a transistor amp, you might need some dummy resistance. (But if you allow transistors, you may as well do all this rectifier stuff at 1/10th the voltage, save a LOT of power, and use a DC amplifier to boost the control voltage 10X to the 6386 grids. Narma did not have a DC amplifier any simpler than a 10-Watt AC amp.)

> if I disconnect a feedback loop and the gain doubles, the amp had 6dB of feedback.

This is meaningful for linear amplifiers with linear loads. The rectifier is very nonlinear, and we suspect the amp input is sometimes nonlinear. And there is the added side-effect of control amp banging on the vari-gain stage and its own input.

I don't suggest you break this loop. Aside from possibly meaningless results, the control amp "should never" be in overload for more than milliseconds, since any large control output will whack-down the vari-gain stage. The control amp will swing VERY large voltages, and has no load (either you broke the rectifier or it quickly charges the time-caps and then runs no-load). It is possible to punch-through an output transformer that way. It is not inevitable, and I've run Fishers unloaded; but if a Fairchild punched-through its vintage transformer, tears would flow.

The rectifier amp should have output impedance like 100 ohms. Its peak current should be, I think, 400mA. The 6973 with 200V G2 saturates about 100mA, and I think you have 1:4 current ratio between one side of the plate winding and the 600Ω output winding. Peak output voltage should be about 90V-100V.

The output impedance is not "600Ω"; the source impedance is less, the load impedance is usually more except when it is much less. "600Ω" is about the mid-point of the effective impedance when it is working hard.
 
[quote author="CJ"] Each 45 degrees off axis versus horizontal vs vertical. This tied into compressing as you need to watch the vertical more caefully in the horizontal/vertical system. This is covered a bit in the owners manual for the 670. It turns out that cutting a disc a certain way produces more IM distortion.
[/quote]

The Westrex 45/45 system is what we know as stereo on a record. The sum signal produces lateral motion and the difference signal produces vertical motion. So the L/R signals are offset by 45 degrees.

The more obvious way to encode stereo is to make one channel lateral and the other channel vertical. There were problems with this. There is greater distortion in the vertical channel so it was hard to get the channels to sound the same.
 
PRR, you are right. It's just a 10 watt 600 ohm line amp. I was wondering what the 150 and 600 ohm taps were doing on a power amp xfmr. But 10 watts mite get you a few miles down the road on your phone line. I stand corrected, the 70 volt theory seemed to fit.

On the 670 feedback winding, I was gonna run the control amp in class a (compress) pass a very low signal thru (10% full power) and put a scope on the plates of the 6V6's and measure FB/NFB gain rise there as to not unload the secondary. I wont blow it up. ahem.

I do understand now how that load is light in the uncharged/unbiased mode then drops to a z below 600 under limiting. So in the real world, you wanna match to that. 600 ohms is just a turns ratio more than a Z.

The Westrex 45/45 system is what we know as stereo on a record. The sum signal produces lateral motion and the difference signal produces vertical motion. So the L/R signals are offset by 45 degrees.

The Fairchild is connected with switchable L+R and L-R stereo linking. This is only useful for MS recording these days, but man did it make the disc mastering guys' job easier to lose a few db's of seperation by compressing/limiting L-R(vertical) a little more!
 
> you need to watch the vertical more caefully in the horizontal/vertical system.

You always have to watch the vertical. You can wave the needle side-to-side as much as you want, just reducing time-per-side. You can only wave the needle up-and-down the depth of the cut, or the cutter (and playback stylus) leaves the record and flies through space. Or through air, which won't hold a signal.

The limit may be less. Side-side wiggle does not change the load on the platter motor (much), up-down wiggle is like plowing dirt 1 foot deep, or 2 feet deep, or scratching the surface: big change in load. Yeah, the platter is massive and cutting acetate is not THAT hard, but you don't want speed/pitch wobbles. Also it is harder to push the cutter down than up, leading to a distortion.

Both techniques (every possible technique) were used in mono. For stereo you have to be clever. Aside from silly hacks like two grooves and two needles, and high-tech hacks like supersonic modulations (used in FM Stereo, but not as easily done in wax), your options are as Gold says. Left=up Right=side, or 45-45. If you have a combo vertical-lateral cutter, you matrix to Sum and Diff. Westrex mounted two voice coils at 45 degree and you feed them stereo directly.

The phasing is set so a mono input produces a lateral wiggle. This plays directly on a mono needle (though a stiff mono needle would plow the vertical out of the groove, ruining stereo in the groove and usually tearing-up the mono as well).

By putting the mono as lateral, a mostly-mono mix gives large lateral wiggles, and there is no hard limit on those. A large difference between channels will give a large vertical wiggle, and that has a hard limit and more distortion. Before Rock, this was only a problem for a few notes per track: if you gave good separation 99% of the tune, listeners would not notice if separation were reduced on the loudest note.
 
I can't wait to hear/read the interview! Should be interesting...

An interesting aside: I'm pretty sure the fact that stereo difference information is encoded vertically, as Gold points out, is one major reason why LF information is usually panned center. Otherwise, the stylus could jump out of the groove!
 
CJ TOTALLY AWESOME :thumb:

This is my number one "gear porn" pinup

I know a guy who has one.

i am constantlt collecting pictures and notes and schematics....

this is one thing i thought i'd never see...

again totally awesome

OH and BTW GREAT PIC OF YOU AND NARMA!

IT SAYS "HAPPY HAPPY JOY JOY"

it's great to come back to the forum after being away for a while and
find such a wonderful gem like this ...
i read the whole thing from beginning to end just now...

1000 thanks
ts
 
Thanks you guys!
All I had to do was ask a few questions and Rein did the rest. In fact, I said very little the whole time.

Great post PRR!

The first vintage audio schematic I had was the 670, which Fletcher sent me probably four years ago. It was a nice large copy. I have had it hanging on the wall ever since, gazing at it every morning as I eat my cornflakes, so yeah, it was a dream come true for me and I am glad I got to spend so much time listening to the guy. A lot of these vintage audio guys are not around anymore. But Mr. Narma looks like he has another 100 years left in him! Must be that cold Baltic climate.

Sadly, his wife of more than fifty years passed last December, so this might explain a delay on the interview since our first contact. :sad:

Larry, the Chicago output has a NFB Z of 104 ohms calculated, accorcing to the Pope of transfomers.

cj
 
The first vintage audio schematic I had was the 670, which Fletcher sent me probably four years ago. It was a nice large copy. I have had it hanging on the wall ever since, gazing at it every morning

I tell you what. This is going up right next to my 70's Farrah Fawcett poster.
Thanks!

The Son of the Father of Mumetal sez its 104 ohms eh? I believe it. The winding is split between 2 resistors to ground to center it for diff amp use, I wonder if that effectively divides that number per leg or side? Sowter's site says its a 9.5:1 ratio which lines up with a 10% fb winding, CJ like you said.

Regarding a DIY vari-mu control amp without the specific Chicago specs,
i proposed to PRR (to avoid that last foot in mouth).. A control amp based on 6BQ5's and a Hammond 1645, but using the Fairchild schematic. He said this iron mite work.

The first thing one finds when cloning a fairchild is a lack of PP output transformers with 600 ohm secondaries that can make 60v. There is the exact copy and...nothing. After misstating that the Chicago output xfmr was a 70v tap, I said "well, why not?" and realized in a modern world, that may be as close as it gets for off the shelf at DIY budgets. This is the 1645:
1645sch.gif
http://www.hammondmfg.com/1608.htm
I'm thinkin that floating second winding for 4 ohms could become a feedback winding. It's a 30w xfmr so with 20w or so, 50+ volts of control voltage could happen. The "z" @ 70v@30w is 163 ohms. Not 600, but plenty of swing. It's 5000 ohms ct pri, so either 6V6's or 6BQ5's would work. 'BQ5's are beam pentodes and handle more current in a smaller tube.. . I was tryna "mid 60's " the Fairchild, move into the subminiature envelopes.lol. opinions?
ps: you could even connect the ultralinear screen taps and have the best sounding rectifiers on the block.
 
Wow, nice going CJ!!! :thumb:

Looking forward to the interview if you don't mind sharing.

You gotta be the ONLY guy that owns a F670 and also get to interview the designer??! :shock:

May be you should get the faceplate autographed as well, if you can lift the 670 tonnes of iron without straining your back. :green:
 
Just curious, did Mr. Narma talk about the Ampex MR-70 master recorder? He co-authored the AES paper on it so I assume he was part of the design team. I don't recall AES papers on the Fairchild limiter, but there was one on their cutting head amplifier by Narma.

Best,

James
 

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