Newbie with crazy idea

[jamesson]

Newton's old saw about standing on the shoulders of giants definitely applies. I would not think to attempt this without alot of backup. That said I have no idea how long it will take me, but hopefully I can structure it in a way where I can publish individual subsystems here to make it useful to you guys.

 

[critterkllr]

I wouldn't have a use for an "all in one" recorder, but would love to have access DIY 500 series AD and DA converters that could be added over time and connected to a single brain/module. I would absolutely pay upgrade fees for firmware every time the brain/module would need to be updated to allow more converters. This would allow me to add only what I need, when I need it and when I could afford it. Maybe this is in the ballpark of a project you'd be interested in?

 

[jamesson]

Architecturally, it makes no sense to do a/d/a conversion anywhere but the backplane. This is the only place where it is possible for the modules to "talk" to each other without crosspatching. Placing the central "brain" as you put it in another module is a pointless waste of space, because unmodified the current system will not support either option. No module can get signal from any other module without external interconnects. If I'm going to design (and ask you to buy) a custom backplane I might as well put a/d/a conversion on it and not waste any module slots.

Let's clarify your proposal a bit. Is this what you want?
http://www.burlaudio.com/products/b80-mothership
If not, why?

I proposed this because I largely share your concerns re modularity of application and price. From what I've heard so far out of the senior people here these are entry-level/mid-level concerns. Things like the aforementioned JoeCo box do one thing but they do it very, very well. Simplicity and reliability is favored over flexibility and modularity.

That aside, let me make 2 things absolutely clear. A) If 10 more people show up here asking for the exact same thing you want, I don't care how far it deflects from my original target. I'll throw up a kickstarter or start design on spec, but as I already said I'm here to be helpful and not to stroke my own ego. B) I am more entry-level than you may think. I can only give you progress reports and the roughest of time estimates. There is no way i can guarantee to meet any deadlines whatsoever, so you'll have to be pretty patient.

Thanks again for your comments. I'm always interested to hear what people are looking for.

EDIT
Re paying for firmware updates, a non-issue. The IC does what it does.

 

[critterkllr]

Architecturally, it makes no sense to do a/d/a conversion anywhere but the backplane. This is the only place where it is possible for the modules to "talk" to each other without crosspatching. Placing the central "brain" as you put it in another module is a pointless waste of space, because unmodified the current system will not support either option. No module can get signal from any other module without external interconnects. If I'm going to design (and ask you to buy) a custom backplane I might as well put a/d/a conversion on it and not waste any module slots.

Let's clarify your proposal a bit. Is this what you want?
http://www.burlaudio.com/products/b80-mothership
If not, why?

I proposed this because I largely share your concerns re modularity of application and price. From what I've heard so far out of the senior people here these are entry-level/mid-level concerns. Things like the aforementioned JoeCo box do one thing but they do it very, very well. Simplicity and reliability is favored over flexibility and modularity.

That aside, let me make 2 things absolutely clear. A) If 10 more people show up here asking for the exact same thing you want, I don't care how far it deflects from my original target. I'll throw up a kickstarter or start design on spec, but as I already said I'm here to be helpful and not to stroke my own ego. B) I am more entry-level than you may think. I can only give you progress reports and the roughest of time estimates. There is no way i can guarantee to meet any deadlines whatsoever, so you'll have to be pretty patient.

Thanks again for your comments. I'm always interested to hear what people are looking for.

EDIT
Re paying for firmware updates, a non-issue. The IC does what it does.

I was not aware of that product, nor am I aware of the inner workings of AD/DA conversation. That does seem great though and I'll research it further! Thanks for pointing it out to me.

Just simply stating that its something that seems to be lacking in the DIY community compared to other items. A lot of guys mentioned that what you proposed may not be their opinion of a best route. I was simply offering something that I, as an entry level guy, would be very excited for. I hope you didn't think I was saying your idea was bad.

The brain/module thing came into play because I thought there needed to be some kind of central location. Something where different types of converters or other other extras would all come together to form an expandable interface. Obviously, after what you stated, this shows that I have no experience with AD/DA design. I'm just a guy that likes to build puzzles and loves recording.

Edit: the updates thing came to mind because I didn't know if multiple units could simply connect together. I mentioned it because the younger guys (like me) are comfortable with the iPhone/iPad mentality. Basically, purchasing simple additional features whenever needed.

 

[jamesson]

Dont feel bad, its impossible to learn without admitting your ignorance. I'm not all that smarter than you probably.

To my mind, true power here may be had not from straight a/d/a conversion but from "zero-latency" digital routing. If you have yourself a nice big pt rig flexible routing is pretty much a non-issue. But let's say you have barely enough $ left over after you build a complete 51x series rack for an 8-channel interface. Lets say the interface is already built into the rack, but in addition to acting as an interface it does programmable digital matrix routing, so that any of the inputs go to any/all of the modules even when youre not connected to a daw. That, I think, is more interesting than simple a/d/a. Clearly senior people with access to high-end pt stuff are not interested. However, entry-level/midrange people may constitute a market.

Clearly zero-latency needs to be used with a grain of salt however digital has an extensive track record in live applications (Yamaha, DiGiCo, D-Show, etc.).

Anyway, thats my two cents. I ended up here for reasons largely similar to yours. IMO the dirty little secret is that analog is much better documented than digital. Alot of the material on a/d/a is proprietary and/or intended for people witj BSci if not MSci. Thats OK, we'll muddle through .

As to what will actually get made, like I said, whatever is demanded. I have faith in the karmic wheel; if I do unto others eventually they will do unto me so to speak. If you want it done, get other people to says so .

 

[ruairioflaherty]

To my mind, true power here may be had not from straight a/d/a conversion but from "zero-latency" digital routing. If you have yourself a nice big pt rig flexible routing is pretty much a non-issue. But let's say you have barely enough $ left over after you build a complete 51x series rack for an 8-channel interface. Lets say the interface is already built into the rack, but in addition to acting as an interface it does programmable digital matrix routing, so that any of the inputs go to any/all of the modules even when youre not connected to a daw.

So the assumption here is that the user will not want/need to connect to other gear outside of the 500/51X style rack? 

Is your proposed project DIY or commercial?

 

[jamesson]

Sure they will want. Later, when they have more money. The existing i/o ports allow this. However, as an entry-level solution 10 freely-routable analog FX with interface strikes me as a sound investment.

Thanks again

Joe

EDIT: to clarify, I am not proposing to eliminate the inputs and outputs on the back panel. Simply sum them together with a software-controlled signal from the a/d/a. If the level from the a/d/a is zero you process nothing but the analog input; conversely if the analog input is disconnected  (or if it isnt ) you can route any/all of the other units to it.

Re $, clearly I will not be able to give away backplanes. Whether I do kickstarter, or sell it, or work with a company, depends on demand.

 

[ruairioflaherty]

Can I ask how much recording experience you have?

 

[jamesson]

I would say a moderate amount. I'm out on Mel Bay Books as mastering engineer on the insert CD for traditional italian mandolin and fiddle tunes (John LaBarbera).

I definitely appreciate your help and input. It seems you think I'm making wrong assumptions but I'm not clear yet on what you think they are. You've been quite clear on why you (and, let's say, your market sector) would not be a good fit for this but you seem to think there are problems with my proposal over and above that. Don't get me wrong; even if you don't talk me out of this there is little probability that I will start in on this by next year, much less this year. Nonetheless, it's exciting to have the opportunity to talk to somebody who has developed products for this market and is willing to share experience. I'm sure I have mad, and am making, some obvious (to you) mistakes. I'm okay with thst; it's a learning process. But, I cannot
learn from my mistakes if nobody tells me what they are.

Thanks again for all your help

Joe

 

[ruairioflaherty]

OK, some thoughts...

The big mistake I see is that you are "solving" problems that nobody has.  If I'm honest not even one feature of your proposed product would improve my life as a recordist.  Have you done location recordings and needed the specific thing you are suggesting.

Your matrix might be useful in a studio situation but in a live location situation we patch once (usually a simple chain) and commit, there is not back and forth between different pres or comps, there is no time.

Speaking of the clever Matrix aside from Z-Sys on the digital side the only commercial product that has this is the SSL Matrix.  A friend recently bought that console and still put all of his outboard on a patch bay, it's just more flexible as often you'll want to chain several pieces in different orders.

My favorite mic pre for location work is a GML, this is 1U piece.  I don't do that much location work anymore (all mastering these days) but I'm doing an important album in Ireland in October and will use 4 of the GML pres to get 16 channels.  Being tied to 500 series pres is not ideal in that case.

Doing digital well on a small scale is very costly, I have friends who design and the cost of low yield SMD stuffing for protos is very high.  You'll need SMD to get the best performance.  Dealing with clocking in a modular system is also a challenge and in this case I'm not sure the reward is worth the effort.

At the small scale (less than 8 channels) your product will be roundly trumped on cost and performance by something like the UA Apollo, for larger location work no pro will give up their HD/Sadie/Radar/JoCo rig.

You're making me seem like a very negative guy but you did ask 

 

[jamesson]

You're making me seem like a very negative guy

Again, dont worry about it. I'm here to learn and help, not to feel validated. If I can talk to somebody who does the kind of work I want to do I should shut up and listen instead of putting up mental barricades. The faster I can get you to voice your objections the faster I can reach understanding IMHO.

I'm totally on board, for example, with your arguments re live and portability for your end of the market. I still think there's room for debate at the lower end where I could argue that people won't need to buy an interface but that assumes you're wrong about price. To be honest  at this point its not even worth my time to do that research.

often you'll want to chain several pieces in different orders

And the digital matrix is incapable of this? Could you provide an example of something the patchbay can do that the Matrix can't?

Thanks again

Joe

 

[ruairioflaherty]

often you'll want to chain several pieces in different orders

And the digital matrix is incapable of this? Could you provide an example of something the patchbay can do that the Matrix can't?

I think a well designed matrix can do this but each piece of gear means more switches (FET or otherwise) in line to corrupt the signal and add distortion.  a 16x16 matrix is not enough for a reasonably sized pro setup and going any larger becomes impractical.

For smaller set up a matrix won't save time because a hard patch is quicker and for larger setups it won't provide enough inputs/outputs, damned if you do and damned if you don't.  The notion of using harder like plug ins seems appealing but this is marketing trumping reality IMO.

 

[jamesson]

That zsys stuff was the closest I've seen to my suggestion. I dont know why they cant just stick an a/d converter in there and call it a day. Hot sh*t regardless.

RE fets et al, I dont have enough EE yet to debate this. Let me ask this; have you worked with live digital consoles at all (Yamaha, DiGiCo, D-Show, etc.)? Would you say they significantly degrade the signal?

EDIT: and, feel free to think I'm clutching at straws but the "using hardware as plugins" is exactly my point; to me it seems like the natural evolution. I cannot understand why nobody has done this yet. Signal degradation is a solvable parametric problem. It's not easy to solve, but I would argue not impossible either. A major character flaw of mine is that I simply cannot abide the phrase "can't be done". It's the easiest way to motivate me.

Edit: something like this http://www.solid-state-logic.com/music/xlogic%20x-patch/

 

[Andy Peters]

RE fets et al, I dont have enough EE yet to debate this. Let me ask this; have you worked with live digital consoles at all (Yamaha, DiGiCo, D-Show, etc.)? Would you say they significantly degrade the signal?

I have, and I'll state emphatically NO, they don't degrade the signal.

Of course, in the standard usage, once the input signals hit the ADCs, they remain digital until they drive an output to the mains PA system or monitor wedges/ears. If the console feeds a recording rig, the signal never leaves the digital domain. An Avid desk talks to the computer over FireWire, DiGiCo likes MADI.

Occasionally, someone will want to insert some special compressor or EQ, so some amount of extra analog in and out routing is provided.

-a

 

[Andy Peters]

The big mistake I see is that you are "solving" problems that nobody has.  If I'm honest not even one feature of your proposed product would improve my life as a recordist.  Have you done location recordings and needed the specific thing you are suggesting.

I have to agree with this.

I can't even figure out what he's proposing.

-a

 

[jamesson]

Its simple, really. I want to put one of these http://www.solid-state-logic.com/music/xlogic%20x-patch/ right on the backplane of a 51x series rack and give it access to all the modules. Now this adds an additional a/d stage but surely the problems this creates are solvable?

Am I incorrect in my assumption that people use analog effects with live consoles?

EDIT: and add an interface capability to it because apparently it's all all analog, so each of the individual inserts should also be able to send/recieve to/from the interface. If it's stil necessary I wil draw a diagram later.

 

[ruairioflaherty]

That zsys stuff was the closest I've seen to my suggestion. I dont know why they cant just stick an a/d converter in there and call it a day. Hot sh*t regardless.

Becuase nobody wants that?  The Z-sys are a niche product sold almost exclusively to mastering and broadcast people.

RE fets et al, I dont have enough EE yet to debate this. Let me ask this; have you worked with live digital consoles at all (Yamaha, DiGiCo, D-Show, etc.)? Would you say they significantly degrade the signal?

FET switching or most forms of electronic signal switching have some compromises.  Live digital consoles are digital, they don't use FETs or any electronic switching!?  Good live consoles do not degrade the signal (often the analog stages are the weak link).

EDIT: and, feel free to think I'm clutching at straws but the "using hardware as plugins" is exactly my point; to me it seems like the natural evolution. I cannot understand why nobody has done this yet. Signal degradation is a solvable parametric problem. It's not easy to solve, but I would argue not impossible either. A major character flaw of mine is that I simply cannot abide the phrase "can't be done". It's the easiest way to motivate me.

Edit: something like this http://www.solid-state-logic.com/music/xlogic%20x-patch/

You are clutching at straws.  The Gearslutz novice crowd will be all over this idea but that is because they have no experience actually using analog gear (consoles or outboard).  A patch bay does all of this efficiently and cheaply.  What you are proposing can be done but when you are holding up products that have been commercial failures as your inspiration I have to ask why?

 

[ruairioflaherty]

Its simple, really. I want to put one of these http://www.solid-state-logic.com/music/xlogic%20x-patch/ right on the backplane of a 51x series rack and give it access to all the modules. Now this adds an additional a/d stage but surely the problems this creates are solvable?

Fundamental misunderstandings.  Why do you need to add an A/D stage.  The matrix is an analog switch matrix that is digitally controlled.

Am I incorrect in my assumption that people use analog effects with live consoles?

Yes.  That is the whole point of digital consoles!  At the very top end of the market FOH will use some analog outboard front ends but this is way up there.

EDIT: and add an interface capability to it because apparently it's all all analog, so each of the individual inserts should also be able to send/recieve to/from the interface. If it's stil necessary I wil draw a diagram later.

Please go ahead and draw the diagram.

 

[JohnRoberts]

Its simple, really. I want to put one of these http://www.solid-state-logic.com/music/xlogic%20x-patch/ right on the backplane of a 51x series rack and give it access to all the modules. Now this adds an additional a/d stage but surely the problems this creates are solvable?

I too struggle with following your themes. but I am not a likely customer.  I had to google 51x to find out what that is. Now I know.

Am I incorrect in my assumption that people use analog effects with live consoles?

The live sound industry is in transition, kind of like recording went through some while ago. The low end of live is using analog consoles so analog efx. The high end has been mostly (not all) digital for a while, so the trend is for using same studio plug ins live.

Recently the price point for live digital consoles has been lowered by Behringer with their X32 so barrier to entry for digital live mixing has been lowered.

Just like in recording, using analog efx in a digital environment is a premium feature.  that probably not that many pony up for.

EDIT: and add an interface capability to it because apparently it's all all analog, so each of the individual inserts should also be able to send/recieve to/from the interface. If it's stil necessary I wil draw a diagram later.

I don't need to be commenting about specific features since I don't perceive a mass market and barely grok what a 51x backplane is...

Just do it, and tell us how it works out...

JR

 

[jamesson]

Ruairi

I'll take care of that later on tonight

As I requested in the other thread, could you please post what you would consider to be a good signal path for an fx pedal? That project is one that I would pursue in a far more immediate term.

Thanks again

Joe