Official C12 Clone - Build and Support Thread

[dmnieto]

Contrary to popular belief, there is no black magic super mojo involved in making a microphone capsule.  It is quite simply a matter of mathematics and resonances (which is directly and indirectly involved in the mathematics too). If the tolerances are tight, the sound is right!

Please bear in mind that we ship many of these to other manufacturers and customers throughout the globe.  Our return rate is less than 2% which we feel is more than acceptable considering the accuracy needed to create these capsules.

Please do not be worried that a capsule is not adequately qc'd to "perform and conform" as we simply. Could not afford the time nor expense of redo's and replacements if they didn't. Our answer is to test test test them until we are satisfied.  Each capsule has around two full hours of hands on testing before it leaves our factory.

Each capsule in each batch is carefully matched and carefully measured to exacting tolerances.  You are right, there is a definite difference in c12 revisions but this difference is strictly one that is mathematical and measurable not mojoable.

We see a definite benefit in maintaining "a sound" with our ck12 and this is why we are so intent on measuring each capsules attributes so as to maintain consistency.  Our capsule may not be as bright as some but it is definitely consistent for response and resonance.

Being called to account on an open forum is not the most comfortable thing to do so I hope this post has been informative enough to set your minds at ease as to our skills and capabilities.

We really love our DIY customers, it is great to see you all experimenting and having fun.  Even though the DIY market only represents about 5% of our business, we value it's contribution and it is among one of our favourite parts of our business.  Please bear in mind though that if we were to answer in depth like this message, each and every time we are asked similar questions, we would never get off the computer.  It's not that we don't perform many levels of QC, we just don't have the time to talk about them constantly.

Thanks for taking the time to read this post.  We look forward to helping you int he future.

Ben

I think it is important to make a note and a distinction concerning my build and Beesneez's CK12.

The purpose of my posts is not to cast a doubt about the quality of Ben's capsule, more about to describe the issues I am facing with my build. On the spirit of the DIY... I build what I can, I buy what I cannot. And Ben is known to build some of the very best capsules. I am convinced that If I am ever going to get what I want it is thanks to his craft. I could have gone to Tskguy's HK12 or Tim Campbell's... but the later being unavailable I chose Ben's CK12 even if I have never actually heard his before. Why?
- They actually build and machine them themselves.
- They have amazing facilities and equipment (look at their videos) for a family business
- They have been in the business of making microphones and I like what they do (Lulu fet comes to my mind).
- And I have the impression he is a good guy.

In conclusion, I believe them (and still do) to be the best possible option out there for a DIYer to get a great capsule with consistent quality for an affordable price. Now, if I want to get something slightly different I have to see if they have the capability of accommodating my request. Not asking that beforehand was probably my mistake. In any case everything I have written up to now is off-topic.

The only thing that matters for this thread is the debugging of the issues I am having in my build; now that I know that the capsule was ok I am back to square zero in my debugging, that is why I felt so down I am going to go under the radar till I find out a bit more about what is going on.

 

[mics]

Contrary to popular belief, there is no black magic super mojo involved in making a microphone capsule.  It is quite simply a matter of mathematics and resonances (which is directly and indirectly involved in the mathematics too). If the tolerances are tight, the sound is right!

Please bear in mind that we ship many of these to other manufacturers and customers throughout the globe.  Our return rate is less than 2% which we feel is more than acceptable considering the accuracy needed to create these capsules.

Please do not be worried that a capsule is not adequately qc'd to "perform and conform" as we simply. Could not afford the time nor expense of redo's and replacements if they didn't. Our answer is to test test test them until we are satisfied.  Each capsule has around two full hours of hands on testing before it leaves our factory.

Each capsule in each batch is carefully matched and carefully measured to exacting tolerances.  You are right, there is a definite difference in c12 revisions but this difference is strictly one that is mathematical and measurable not mojoable.

We see a definite benefit in maintaining "a sound" with our ck12 and this is why we are so intent on measuring each capsules attributes so as to maintain consistency.  Our capsule may not be as bright as some but it is definitely consistent for response and resonance.

Being called to account on an open forum is not the most comfortable thing to do so I hope this post has been informative enough to set your minds at ease as to our skills and capabilities.

We really love our DIY customers, it is great to see you all experimenting and having fun.  Even though the DIY market only represents about 5% of our business, we value it's contribution and it is among one of our favourite parts of our business.  Please bear in mind though that if we were to answer in depth like this message, each and every time we are asked similar questions, we would never get off the computer.  It's not that we don't perform many levels of QC, we just don't have the time to talk about them constantly.

Thanks for taking the time to read this post.  We look forward to helping you int he future.

Ben

I think it is important to make a note and a distinction concerning my build and Beesneez's CK12.

The purpose of my posts is not to cast a doubt about the quality of Ben's capsule, more about to describe the issues I am facing with my build. On the spirit of the DIY... I build what I can, I buy what I cannot. And Ben is known to build some of the very best capsules. I am convinced that If I am ever going to get what I want it is thanks to his craft. I could have gone to Tskguy's HK12 or Tim Campbell's... but the later being unavailable I chose Ben's CK12 even if I have never actually heard his before. Why?
- They actually build and machine them themselves.
- They have amazing facilities and equipment (look at their videos) for a family business
- They have been in the business of making microphones and I like what they do (Lulu fet comes to my mind).
- And I have the impression he is a good guy.

In conclusion, I believe them (and still do) to be the best possible option out there for a DIYer to get a great capsule with consistent quality for an affordable price. Now, if I want to get something slightly different I have to see if they have the capability of accommodating my request. Not asking that beforehand was probably my mistake. In any case everything I have written up to now is off-topic.

The only thing that matters for this thread is the debugging of the issues I am having in my build; now that I know that the capsule was ok I am back to square zero in my debugging, that is why I felt so down I am going to go under the radar till I find out a bit more about what is going on.

Thanks for your kind words and support D.  I am sure that we can get you up and running without stress or worries very soon.

Ben

 

[trans4funks1]

Thank You for taking the time to explain the details Ben.

It is reassuring to learn more details about your procedure and your interest in testing as you work.

Thank You.

 

[lordscruffo]

My output is great now,    but i just realized that all i am hearing is crystal clear high end and mild lows.    I just flipped the polarity/phase button on my LA-610 and BAM!  There's all my bass....    is the mic supposed to be able to switch between phase like that?  Or have i mis wired the capsule wires?  The mic is currently set to Cardiod.      Any help would be really appreciated!!!

thanks,

Lord Scruffo

Hmmm....this doesn't make sense, unless you had multiple mikes in your project that you were mixing together.  There should be no change in sound by flipping the phase on your preamp on a mono source unless something is whacky in the preamp itself.

Hi Matador,   

Thanks for the reply.    Yah,  it's just mono.  I think my wiring is to blame.    To fix the output issue i was having I linked the FB and RB with a jumper!  Could that have anything to do with it?

 

[lordscruffo]

Sounds like you wired the capsule backwards and are listening in headphones.  If the monitor sound is out of phase with your inner ear it causes weird sound.

Thanks for your reply!    I think my wiring is to blame.    To fix the output issue i was having I linked the FB and RB with a jumper!  Could that have anything to do with it?

 

[Matador]

Thanks for your reply!    I think my wiring is to blame.    To fix the output issue i was having I linked the FB and RB with a jumper!  Could that have anything to do with it?

From page 1 of this thread:

[quote author=chunger]
The CT12 capsule has isolated backplates which we will bridge together at the solder terminals on the capsule.  With this capsule being scavenged from a previous prototype, Matador already soldered in wires for the front diaphragm, rear diaphragm, front/rear backplates, as well as bridge the front and rear backplates together.
[/quote]

 

[Reverend]

Thanks for your reply!    I think my wiring is to blame.    To fix the output issue i was having I linked the FB and RB with a jumper!  Could that have anything to do with it?

From page 1 of this thread:

[quote author=chunger]
The CT12 capsule has isolated backplates which we will bridge together at the solder terminals on the capsule.  With this capsule being scavenged from a previous prototype, Matador already soldered in wires for the front diaphragm, rear diaphragm, front/rear backplates, as well as bridge the front and rear backplates together.

There may just be a language issue here. Saying, "we will bridge together at the solder terminals on the capsule" implies that it's an upcoming instruction. Do you mean, "Now bridge together at the solder terminals at the capsule?"
It's also implied later that there's another bridging step that needs to be done between FB and RB? Maybe between the posts FB and RB on the mics PCB.
I would have preferred step by step guidance through these crucial steps. Thanks.
[/quote]

 

[Reverend]

Thanks for your reply!    I think my wiring is to blame.    To fix the output issue i was having I linked the FB and RB with a jumper!  Could that have anything to do with it?

From page 1 of this thread:

[quote author=chunger]
The CT12 capsule has isolated backplates which we will bridge together at the solder terminals on the capsule.  With this capsule being scavenged from a previous prototype, Matador already soldered in wires for the front diaphragm, rear diaphragm, front/rear backplates, as well as bridge the front and rear backplates together.

There may just be a language issue here. Saying, "we will bridge together at the solder terminals on the capsule" implies that it's an upcoming instruction. Do you mean, "Now bridge together at the solder terminals on the capsule?"
It's also implied later that there's another bridging step that needs to be done between FB and RB? Maybe between the posts FB and RB on the mics PCB.
I would have preferred step by step guidance through these crucial steps. Thanks.

OK. Did you mean, "NOW bridge together at the solder terminals on the capsule" 
Is this step/statement is why there is no visible jumper between the FB and RB on the mic pcb? Sometimes those pictures are very deceiving even though they are well taken as they could possibly be. I've looked at those wires from the capsule to the pcb, in the pictures, so many times in an effort to get it right, zooming in very close.
[/quote]thanks.

 

[Matador]

The feeler thread has other/more pictures and descriptions of the wiring.

...More pictures of Tim Campbell's CT12 installation...

 

[chunger]

I have received a few inquiries about the differences between the AMI and Cinemag transformer for the C12.

A note from Brian Fox at Fox Audio Research regarding differences between the AMI T14 and the Cinemag CM-13114 transformer options for C12 clone builds:

"The CM-13114 was wound by Cinemag at the request of Fox Audio Research to get a 12:1 transformer with the improved low end sound that Cinemag's laminations exhibit. Three different alloys are stacked in the core to create the improved low end. The Cinemag also has the signature 1dB down response at 20KHz using a plate follower 6072 tube that makes it sound warm.

The AMI T14 is a full 1dB down at 20Hz, but adds a small mid-range lift (.25dB) and is flat out to 20KHz which works great with capsules that are low end heavy like the CT12."

 

[melomane]

I have received a few inquiries about the differences between the AMI and Cinemag transformer for the C12.

A note from Brian Fox at Fox Audio Research regarding differences between the AMI T14 and the Cinemag CM-13114 transformer options for C12 clone builds:

"The CM-13114 was wound by Cinemag at the request of Fox Audio Research to get a 12:1 transformer with the improved low end sound that Cinemag's laminations exhibit. Three different alloys are stacked in the core to create the improved low end. The Cinemag also has the signature 1dB down response at 20KHz using a plate follower 6072 tube that makes it sound warm.

The AMI T14 is a full 1dB down at 20Hz, but adds a small mid-range lift (.25dB) and is flat out to 20KHz which works great with capsules that are low end heavy like the CT12."

I dont want to raise a conflict, but it seems to me that it was mic&mod who proposed the manufacturing to Cinemag. This is what David told me...

 

[chunger]

I dont want to raise a conflict, but it seems to me that it was mic&mod who proposed the manufacturing to Cinemag. This is what David told me...

Brian Fox has always been a straight shooter with no hidden agendas who in my dealings has always followed through on agreements.  I have no reason to doubt his hand in the spec and development of the CM-13114 12:1 transformer as that is his claim.  Dave at Cinemag often develops products at the request and input of multiple customers, so it is likely there were multiple requests for a transformer optimized for the C12 plate follower circuit.  For instance, Dave is prototyping a large core 12:1 transformer for "me", but I do know there is at least 1 other company requesting a very similar design.  Additionally, the roll off at 20K on the CM-13114 was not expected in a small core transformer which could indicate a spec change or compromise design to consolidate 2 "or more" customer requests.  At any rate, the lamination shape is identical to the popular CM-2480, so it appears to be a tweak on a long-standing product.

 

[lordscruffo]

Thanks for your reply!    I think my wiring is to blame.    To fix the output issue i was having I linked the FB and RB with a jumper!  Could that have anything to do with it?

From page 1 of this thread:

[quote author=chunger]
The CT12 capsule has isolated backplates which we will bridge together at the solder terminals on the capsule.  With this capsule being scavenged from a previous prototype, Matador already soldered in wires for the front diaphragm, rear diaphragm, front/rear backplates, as well as bridge the front and rear backplates together.

[/quote]


Thanks Matador,

      I've double checked the wiring and even reset them to make sure the connections we're good.  I've checked on multiple pre amps,  flipping the phase,  and they all make a difference when switched.    I've also checked another mic i have (an Advanced Audio CM47se)  and it makes a difference on it as well.  I'm assuming because it's from two sources that are picking things up slightly differently?

Could you verify a mic of yours when flipping the phase that it doesn't do anything to it?    At least that way i can know for sure that something is wrong on my end!


thanks!

 

[dmnieto]

Thanks for your kind words and support D.  I am sure that we can get you up and running without stress or worries very soon.

Ben

I received the updated capsule from Ben (please take into account that this was a special request to make it a bit brighter) over the weekend... and even if we were smashed with jet-lag we gave in to test it. This is the rawest recording you can imagine (couldn't go to the studio in sunday). In a lab, airplanes and bird noises outside, no EQ, no comp, with the microphone in cardioid at about 1.5 feet and pointed towards the neck of the ukelele and the performer sitting on a couch jamming hawaiian songs while recovering from jet-lag... because that is what you do, right?

It is routed through a VP25, a G9, a BA283 pre sitting on the bench and a N72.... enjoy (https://soundcloud.com/david-martinez-nieto/sets/early-matachung-c12-test-with) or not

It is sounding much better than earlier, that muffled sound completely gone (so there may have been indeed some issue with the circuit or the previous capsule). Both sides of the capsules are very detailed and natural although the one recorded is not as bright as the other one and has a little more of body. The other side sounds a bit more open though, and according to my wife (who is the sound engineer) closer to the sound of the microphones of the C24 and the CT12 equipped microphone clone. She will try to run the shootout again this week.

I know that is not the perfect recording, but it should be a general idea of how it sounds like.

And Ben, thanks a lot.

 

[Matador]

Thanks Matador,

      I've double checked the wiring and even reset them to make sure the connections we're good.  I've checked on multiple pre amps,  flipping the phase,  and they all make a difference when switched.    I've also checked another mic i have (an Advanced Audio CM47se)  and it makes a difference on it as well.  I'm assuming because it's from two sources that are picking things up slightly differently?

Could you verify a mic of yours when flipping the phase that it doesn't do anything to it?    At least that way i can know for sure that something is wrong on my end!

thanks!

Just to confirm:  you are recording with multiple mikes?  If so, phase can have a huge impact on the sound from multiple mikes that are mixed together.

 

[lordscruffo]

Thanks Matador,

      I've double checked the wiring and even reset them to make sure the connections we're good.  I've checked on multiple pre amps,  flipping the phase,  and they all make a difference when switched.    I've also checked another mic i have (an Advanced Audio CM47se)  and it makes a difference on it as well.  I'm assuming because it's from two sources that are picking things up slightly differently?

Could you verify a mic of yours when flipping the phase that it doesn't do anything to it?    At least that way i can know for sure that something is wrong on my end!

thanks!

Just to confirm:  you are recording with multiple mikes?  If so, phase can have a huge impact on the sound from multiple mikes that are mixed together.

Hi Matador,

    No,  it's actually just the single mic.  As well as my CM47se,  when i flip the phase through 3 different pre amps,  the sound flips as well,  as if it were two mic's.

 

[chunger]

UPDATE:

Eric Heiserman HK12 capsule development is near completion.  We have a VERY good  prototype up and running on final production metalwork.  The longer than normal development cycle on this capsule is largely due to the requirement to be able to scale up as needed and ensure a "proper" capsule will be available on reasonable lead times for DIY.  Final testing and spec verification now.  Studio 939 is actively collaborating on this capsule development and the final response characteristics will be in line with our sonic preferences and compare favorably (on-par) with the best vintage C12's we have access to.  Also, this capsule is being developed on our C12 clone mic platform, so there should not be any surprises in our specific application.

Note: this is a 100% US made capsule hand assembled by Eric Heiserman

 

[OPR]

Cool! 8)good to see some movement on the HK12!
Can we hear the Audio comparisons with the original C12?

 

[trans4funks1]

First thought: Awesome!!!

Second Thought: Is the back plate assembly similar to the original multi part assembly?

 

[Reverend]

Finally. One year later I've finished this project. I'd like to apologize to everyone, especially Chunger and Matador for being such a b**ch about this build. But you guys managed to walk me through this. I went with the Peluso capsule and the mic sounds amazing. I wish Matador and Chunger all the best with the new capsule and future builds. The only bad news for you guys is that I'm going to build another one and I may be back on this message board. Thanks again. Super happy with the sound of this mic. It was all worth it.