Phantom power discharge time

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ruffrecords

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Lots of phantom on/off switch circuits use an RC network to help reduce thumps. THe charge time constant is usually relatively short being a typical 100 ohms times maybe 47uF. But when the 48V is switched off, the cap is still charged and if there is no phantom powered mic plugged in, the charge will remain there until some poor soul plugs in a badly wired expensive ribbon mic and blows it up, unless the cap is deliberately discharged. One way to do this is to connect a resistor right across the cap but this loads the P48 supply so it needs to be as large as possible. Now a 220K resistor will only pull 200uA from P48 but its discharge time will be about 10 seconds. Is this too long? Is there a better way?

Cheers

Ian
 
It also begs the question of how someone ends up with an expensive mic' that is badly wired. But I guess it will happen.
As Ian has written previously (IIRC) - Phantom is a bit of 'Kludge'. But it's very convenient 🙃
 
Thanks guys. I was wondering about doing it that way. Nice to know it is already used elsewhere. It is hard to find schematics of actual phantom power circuits on line.

Cheers

Ian
 
phantom-png.85349

At turn on (t=0) C1 is a dead short. The above approach causes 240 mA of inrush current at turn on and 240 mA switch contact current at turn-off. (Limited by R1, cap ESR and phantom supply peak current). Why is that a good thing?

Better to put the phantom bypass cap on the unswitched side and eliminate R1 altogether. The 6K81 pullups limit current into the nodes at pins 2 and 3 which at most could only be about 14 mA. R2, R3 and the capacitances hung on pins 2 and 3 at the preamp input and microphone body dominate the time constant. Backgrounding the R2/R3 node when off (as shown) allows R2 and R3 to discharge the input.

For transformer inputs and mic outputs there's no benefit to the above as well.
 
At turn on (t=0) C1 is a dead short. The above approach causes 240 mA of inrush current at turn on and 240 mA switch contact current at turn-off. (Limited by R1, cap ESR and phantom supply peak current). Why is that a good thing?
A vaguely decent switch can handle that no problem.

Better to put the phantom bypass cap on the unswitched side and eliminate R1 altogether.
I would definitely not do that. Having a cap right at the connector stops any AC currents from circulating through the chassis. You don't know what's on the other end.
 
Why dump 240 mA of current into ground every time you turn it on?

If phantom is derived from a small switcher or voltage-multiplied source can it even handle 240 mA peak without collapsing momentarily? Maybe so, maybe not. "You don't know what's on the other end." That amount of peak current could setup a thump propagating into all the other channels.

I saw one manufacturer attempt to use an 0206 resistor for R1 in a prototype. It glowed briefly at turn on. Someone wasn't thinking...

I didn't say anything about moving a cap away from a connector. You assumed something.

C1 on either side of the switch physically moves it a 1/2".

When it's off and R2/R3 are back-grounded C1 is irrelevant to the input. When S1 is on (with C1 is on the unswitched side) it's electrically in the same place as if it were switched. If you're concerned about circulating currents C1's ground connection determines where the ripple current exits - it can be the same place regardless of which side of the switch its on.

You also do not address the silliness of ramping the top of the 6K81s with a tau of 48 ms when the actual turn-on, due to the 6K81s and coupling capacitance hanging off pins 2 and 3 are many times longer. Pulling some numbers out of the air for an active mic preamp with an unloaded input I calculate a tau of 367 ms. (6K81||6K81 + 1K||1K rbias) * (47uF||47uF) Add capacitors in the microphone and its longer.

If you were to discharge that cap with 200 Ohms in a darkened room you'd see a bodacious spark. Is it really necessary to do that to the switch every time its turned off? Sure it can handle 240 mA resistive load with ease. But do you really want it to arc?
 
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I don't see a problem with putting C1 on the input side of the switch. If the switch is located close to the XLR and the chassis wire from pin 1 to C1 is above average thickness, that would certainly work fine and it is true that it would eliminate those currents through the switch contacts.

But I would keep R1 in front of C1. You could have an unpowered device like a dynamic mic (and phantom was on just by accident) that doesn't have large caps on the lines so that RC is potentially good filtering. And now you have potentially a bunch of C1's in parallel so you need them to limit surge currents on startup.
 
I think the more recent “Phantom Menace” AES paper digs into the data on cap sizing with regards to timing, current, discharge rate, etc.
 
"I don't see a problem with putting C1 on the input side of the switch. If the switch is located close to the XLR and the chassis wire from pin 1 to C1 is above average thickness, that would certainly work fine and it is true that it would eliminate those currents through the switch contacts.

But I would keep R1 in front of C1. You could have an unpowered device like a dynamic mic (and phantom was on just by accident) that doesn't have large caps on the lines so that RC is potentially good filtering. And now you have potentially a bunch of C1's in parallel so you need them to limit surge currents on startup."

I agree with the above statements particularly with regard to inrush limiting current into the C1s on rail power up. In most consumer equipment those would also be fusible resistors in case C1 shorted.

I checked the current specs for some of the smaller latching pushbuttons. Illuminated Push Button Switches | LED Push Button Switches

Many of the smaller latching switches we see in common use for phantom in commercial products are only rated at 30V 100 mA.

The 3 dB point of 200 Ohm 220 uF is 3.6 Hz. The filtering provided however is common mode so most LF noise would be rejected anyway without it. One could argue for a smaller C1 for less stored charge and supply rail power-up inrush.

I think the worst case condition WRT ramping would be a dynamic mic feeding a transformer input. When phantom is (accidentally) switched on both legs rise instantly and do so in common mode. No magnetizing current would develop in the primary and the CMRR of the transformer would largely reject the pop. The DCR of the mic would also shunt the primary.

When not under fault conditions the 6K81s are always going to limit current from the 48V supply. Faults and currents from stored charges - as emrr points out - are another matter.

In an active mic preamp with an open input there is a common mode step response during phantom turn on on the "dry" right-hand side of the input capacitors. At t=0 the input coupling capacitors are a dead short. A voltage divider is formed by the phantom pull-ups and the input bias resistors. For a 1K bias resistor there's about a +6V common mode step at the preamp inputs. A good preamp's CMRR will reject this step. But, and its a big but, there will always be common mode to differential conversion because the time constants of the input capacitors don't exactly match nor do the resistors. For this reason it's always a good idea to keep the bias resistors low enough that the step at turn-on doesn't exceed the common mode range of the preamp.

The point is no matter how much you slug the phantom turn on it's going to pop. And, in most cases that are capacitively-coupled the time constants of the phantom pullup resistors are going to dominate turn-on time.

Phantom on LEDs should be bicolor red/green for danger/safe indication.
 
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"I

The point is no matter how much you slug the phantom turn on it's going to pop. And, in most cases that are capacitively-coupled the time constants of the phantom pullup resistors are going to dominate turn-on time.
So, just to be clear, exactly what would you recommend for phantom on/off switching? No RC at all, just a C or someting else?

Cheers

Ian
 
Find it. Read it.
Unfortunately it is $33 for non members and from the abstract it seems to apply more to "field failures of existing line driver and microphone preamplifier integrated circuits (ICs) were correlated with accidental connections between line outputs and microphone inputs with phantom power applied"

Cheers

Ian
 
http://thatcorp.com/datashts/AES7909_48V_Phantom_Menace_Returns.pdf
Primarily data on varying sizes of preamp input caps and related current. lPenty of phantom behavior clues reading between the lines. I think the comments on phantom reservoir caps are probably in threads at his site, probably in threads about an input capacitor-less preamp. I've read it all....I've forgotten it....it's there for those who look.

The Jensen schematic posted above has been a standard for decades; there are always other 'standards'. There's whatever mythical 'standard' has been invented for 48V slow start on German V series preamps that never expected 48V, etc. They probably produce other problems.


I have some Yamaha preamps that thump mightily when 48V is cycled, and I've updated with series resistances and reservoir caps, made no difference. Other things with the same arrangement don't thump at all.
 
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The THAT 1510/1512 datasheet is interesting:

1633827808259.png

This doesn't show an RC or C on the 6k8's. So this suggests that either there is no RC at all or the RC would be on the +48V line. But what is interesting is that they use the 0V symbol for the switch ground and not the chassis symbol which is to say there is no short path between pin 1 and the cap. Return currents would have to go all the way back to the supply into the star ground and out to the cap. It seems to me that that would be quite pointless. I suppose if your +48 is a modern well designed and therefore quiet supply to begin with, maybe you can really skip the RC.

Or the person who drew this schem was abbreviating the +48V and I should just stop procrastinating and go back to writing code ...
 
Fortunately I use input transformers so I experience none of these problems. It seems that ramping the 48V up and down is pointless and that thumps may or may not happen no matter what you do. I think I will stick to a local RC with the switch after it.

Cheers

Ian
 

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