Pimping up a Behringer Composer possible? Peak-stop wanted.

[Eurocide]

I'm looking for a peak-stop limiter that catches occasional small peaks before hitting my AD converter.
Before I started using "high-end" gear, I used a Behringer Composer for this purpose. It did its job well, but compared to nowadays with awful values & mediocre sound.

Is it possible to modify the circuit of the Composer's peak-stop limiter with let's say better op-amps?
Or do we already have a fine schematic around (but I did a search)?
Or does even the GSSL (mine not finished yet) do the job?

Another alternative would be an Apogee converter with softclip. But at the moment not affordable for me.

Thanks in advance.

 

[gyraf]

Find us a schematic of the mentioned composer, and we'll see what we can do..

Jakob E.

 

[clintrubber]

[quote author="Eurocide"]I'm looking for a peak-stop limiter that catches occasional small peaks before hitting my AD converter.
Before I started using "high-end" gear, I used a Behringer Composer for this purpose. It did its job well, but compared to nowadays with awful values & mediocre sound.

Is it possible to modify the circuit of the Composer's peak-stop limiter with let's say better op-amps?
Or do we already have a fine schematic around (but I did a search)?
Or does even the GSSL (mine not finished yet) do the job?

Another alternative would be an Apogee converter with softclip. But at the moment not affordable for me.

Thanks in advance.[/quote]
I'm wondering where the nastyness you're hearing is coming from: the very function of the peak-stop being ugly of it's own already (principle), or the way the function is implemented (circuit design, part-selection).

But how about lower levels so that you don't need one altogether ? With todays bit-depths noise should be less of an issue, allowing for more safety margin below 0dBFS. But you'll have already thought about this & skipped it.

And like Jakob said, feel free to post the schematic :thumb:

Bye,

Peter

 

[Samuel Groner]

Another alternative would be an Apogee converter with softclip.

Then go for a simple soft clip. Two resistors and two zeners, couldn't be simpler.

Samuel

 

[Eurocide]

[quote author="clintrubber"]
I'm wondering where the nastyness you're hearing is coming from: the very function of the peak-stop being ugly of it's own already (principle), or the way the function is implemented (circuit design, part-selection).[/quote]
It comes from the cheap parts of the Behringer that produce unwanted distortion when nuking them with the output of the Avalon 747.
The 747 provides a huge headroom & output that the Composer can't handle. So if I would turn the amplification of the 747 down again I would lose what I gained. And the 747 sounds best for me when driven hot.

[quote author="clintrubber"]
But how about lower levels so that you don't need one altogether ? With todays bit-depths noise should be less of an issue, allowing for more safety margin below 0dBFS. But you'll have already thought about this & skipped it.[/quote]
You are very right, but for my style of music a heavily compressed sound is necessary to compete with others (a bit silly, but that's the business). And I like to do the compression with outboard gear instead of using the software compressors.

[quote author="clintrubber"]
And like Jakob said, feel free to post the schematic :thumb:
[/quote]If I would have one, of course :wink:

@samuel:
Grüezi von dr Gränz'.
What would be the values of the mentioned parts (Newbie alert here :wink: )

 

[kvintus]

but for my style of music a heavily compressed sound is necessary to compete with others (a bit silly, but that's the business)

If you need compression, that can be done in the mix or when mastering. I think it's more important to have a good recording of the source than to have a lot of compression when recording.

/Anders

 

[Samuel Groner]

What would be the values of the mentioned parts?

You might check this site for details:
www.headwize.com/projects/limiter_prj.htm

Samuel

 

[Eurocide]

Thanks a lot at all! :thumb:
I will check all the options.

 

[clintrubber]

[quote author="kvintus"]

but for my style of music a heavily compressed sound is necessary to compete with others (a bit silly, but that's the business)

If you need compression, that can be done in the mix or when mastering. I think it's more important to have a good recording of the source than to have a lot of compression when recording.

/Anders[/quote]
Right. I haven't even compared them side by side for that application, but for joining the dB-race (if you must) then I'd expect better results from a software multiband compressor than from a decent but still single band 'budget' compressor like the Beh.

 

[rodabod]

[quote author="clintrubber"]
Right. I haven't even compared them side by side for that application, but for joining the dB-race (if you must) then I'd expect better results from a software multiband compressor than from a decent but still single band 'budget' compressor like the Beh.[/quote]

[quote author="Eurocide"] but for my style of music a heavily compressed sound is necessary to compete with others (a bit silly, but that's the business). [/quote]

I think if you are looking for a "heavily compressed sound" then you are better sticking with a single-band compressor as you can hear the artefacts "better". A multi-band compressor will get you "more" dB, but they are generally more transparent.

I would maybe just get a better compressor. The Behringer models don't have much "character" and aren't great (obviously) for compressing a mix. I tried it and it was mediocre.

For peak / transient limiting, try the Waves Maximiser or the compressors which you get in PSP Vintagewarmer or T-Racks....

I suppose it depends if you are looking for true dB average volume, or simply the "pumping" effect which gives perceived volume...

 

[clintrubber]

Right Roddy, you've said it well. The compressed vs compete were in fact two different directions.

 

[Eurocide]

[quote author="clintrubber"][quote author="kvintus"]

but for my style of music a heavily compressed sound is necessary to compete with others (a bit silly, but that's the business)

If you need compression, that can be done in the mix or when mastering. I think it's more important to have a good recording of the source than to have a lot of compression when recording.

/Anders[/quote]
Right. I haven't even compared them side by side for that application, but for joining the dB-race (if you must) then I'd expect better results from a software multiband compressor than from a decent but still single band 'budget' compressor like the Beh.[/quote]
oops. I see, some misunderstandings occurred from what I wanted to say.
three different topics came up whithin.

topic 1: loudness race. To compete with the silly loudness race, a software limiter is the best choice. I use the UAD Precision Limiter for this on subgroups. Or better: I give the mixdown to the mastering studio which I trust.

topic 2: Behringer. I don't use it anymore for several years! It was just an EXAMPLE of a peak limiter, because it was a quite known product and did it job for its price.

topic 3: "heavily compressed sound". Sorry, was the wrong expression.
I use the Avalon for shaping the volume envelope to "sculpt" the recording material - which comes from hardware synths only. Because the 747 is a bit hard to tame I often get peak overloads at the AD converter even when I watch out for enough headroom. And just for catching those OCCASIONAL peaks I wanted some kind of "safety" limiter that I was used to from the Behringer.
Just for the laziness to take care of the peaks all the time :grin:
And the sound is definitely different from a software compressor.

I hope this explanation defines my intention for this topic better.
Ride on! This forum rocks.

 

[Eurocide]

Ok ok ok...

After spending an evening with testing and measuring I have come to the old conclusion:
No clipping ist the best clipping. :grin:

If I want a wall of sound, I hit the AD converter normally (-3 dbFS) and pump it up with software. The tube sound of the 747 is emphasized in a very pleasant manner this way.

I've also tested the software limiter overloads with a sine wave (short impulses and long tones) and listened to the resulting square wave.
- The smoothest software limiter is UAD Presicion Limiter for me.
- My old L2 really destroys the wave.
- Interesting fact: the Cubase built-in VST Dynamics limiter produces no audible square artefacts at all, but at the cost of all transients...

(You can now move this thread to the Brewery if necessary)

 

[tony dB]

glad you cleared the situation up a bit. I was really under the impression that you wanted to feed your Avalon into a bringerposer...

This idea is as bad as posting cartoons in Danish newspapers.

It is a wellknown problem that the Avalon compressor is way to sweet to be used for anything aggresive.
Just like you I like mine best when really driven over the edges of tubedistortion, for example; leadgtr stays perfect in the mix, some vocals like it too when you the Avalon (to) hard.

I go afterwards to a distressor, 1176 or some other nice compressor.
You could consider building a 1176 as a partner for your Avalon

 

[Eurocide]

Yes, Tony, sounds good.

My first GSSL is about to be finished soon and I think it is the right thing to put after the 747.
If this first project works, I will go for two 1176s.
I already love the UAD version and the hardware unit should blast it against the next wall, I guess.

Just for a final test I dusted off the Composer from the storage room and turned it on again. Oh my God! When you kick in this peak limiter it starts sounding REALLY cheap. brizzle...bzrizzleee...ffft...
And transients? Where have they gone???
gone to cheap limiter hell... :green:
But 10 years ago it was fine because I had no comparison to higher value stuff.
And today memory can do evil tricks to your brain...

 

[tony dB]

the problem with gear/studio/production is also this;
as soon as you start upgrading certain parts of your signalchain, the weakest part becomes very audible for eating quality. On top of this, we all start (most of us do) with cheapo gear (when you need compression and have the option of no compressor, or an Bringercompressor to use, you feel that the bringer does something, plus with a lot of tweaks in EQ, etc, you might end with something what seems right)
The further you go into your productioncareer, the better your hearing develops and the more easy you spot bad gear, etc... often resulting in a never ending feeling that you just didn't reach that level of recording/mixing because of AD-DA, compressor, acoustics, microphones, EQ, ...

I do this stuff almost 20 years for a living and experience this more or less daily. (lucky I know a bit how too handle a solderingstation)

 

[tony dB]

and knowing a little about acoustics helps a lot too of course !