Preamp difference : if it's not the frequency, not the slew rate, and not the harmonics, what is it ?

[rh001]

I'll add another reply. I've read most of the replies to this post and I noticed the conversation drifted towards the impossibility or near impossibly of knowing what sounds good due to ear physiological variation and differences in taste. Truth is the market does know even if the waters are muddied. The best sounding stuff does stand out but that doesn't mean there is one piece of gear and one musical performance that is the gold standard. There are many that sound really good but of course the majority are second or third rate or worse. And if it could all be measured in the lab then everything would sound great (not considering musical skill) . Oh the vain hopes and dreams of the proliterate....'finally we will get there via empiricism if not through violent struggle!" Cuz see, even if one could test and measure one's way to success in audio electronics still there would be differences in price cuz the components have different costs and even shipping weight has to be factored in. And so unless audiohiles and musicians are Harrison Bergeron'ed there will be differences in price of gear and it is not the case that this group of people are idiots that just imagine they hear differences...better and worse.

They can hear what's better and they will pay more for it. And in the case of audiophiles they will often pay more for style too.

I have no specific answers, like to say it's the distortion or a particular distortion profile, blah blah blah. Only way to getting a grip on this subject matter is do a lot of listening to different gear, including different types...tube, class A discreet transistor, integrated circuits, and different sources...microphones, recorded music, digital recordings, analog recordings. And of course you have to have good ears and good taste or figure out how to develop that so you can tell good from bad. Anyone who says "taste is subjective and individual" is hopeless.

 

[Voyager10]

Wish I knew of a super clean line amp?

I have no personal experience of this one: https://ka-electronics.com/shop/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=67 but the claimed tech specs are very good and the design seems sound.

 

[Paul W]

In medicine that's called a differential diagnosis (list of things it could be).
==
IIRC both Kahneman and his fellow author Tversky are Jewish, so not really a slight. We have a lot more latitude to make self-deprecatory comments than make the same comments about others.

I certainly didn't mean it as a slight, especially after citing three of my favorite ethnically Jewish Nobel prize winners, who are among my heroes.

When the two Jews / three opinions saying has come up in my presence, it's usually in the context of talking about how Jews are several times as likely as non-Jews to be lawyers, scientists, philosophers, other scholars, etc., and there's a suggestion that maybe has something to do with Jewish culture valuing an ability to analyze things and argue them through. So it's not necessarily self-deprecatory at all... sometimes more wryly humblebragging. (Yeah, we argue a lot, and because of that practice, we're particularly good at it.)

In my own experience it was a revelation in junior high school when I started regularly having dinner at my half-Jewish best friend's house, and we discussed all sorts of things including sex, politics, and religion at the dinner table, and got into many enjoyable arguments that his parents thought were fine and entertaining. That was in stark contrast to dinner at my Christian family's house, where everyone strenuously avoided any conflict, and my Mom would probably have had a stroke if dinner conversation touched on anything remotely controversial and an actual argument broke out. I mentioned that to my friend's parents, and his Jewish lawyer dad joked about the three opinions thing; that was the first time I heard it, but far from the last.

(Of course, like with most stereotypes, there are vast numbers of exceptions. Most Christians aren't as conflict-averse as my family was, and most Jews aren't particularly argumentative, or likely to win a Nobel prize.)

 

[RoadrunnerOZ]

Over decades designing gear I have determined that I can measure nonlinearities or response errors far smaller than I can reliably perceive. That's life working with our meat computers.

Sometimes we perceive something is wrong without being able to pinpoint the exact problem - test and measurement can more readily define areas of error once it is known there is a need.
Interesting read here interview with Rupert Neve part 1 - 3/4 of the way through regarding a problem with a console at Air Studios with Geoff Emerick not happy:
https://www.audiotechnology.com/features/interview/rupert-neve-interview-part-1
I have noticed that channel and mix bus meters in view, especially peak meters, while working on a mix can often cloud the judgement - whereas they’re totally necessary to ensure the final output is within the required boundaries of LUFS and dynamic range. Our eyes can influence our ears.
When I finish a mix I go out of the control room, leave the door open a crack and listen to the track from outside - it’s amazing how quickly level, compression and EQ errors become apparent when heard in mono from a distance.
The final mix gets listened to in a car or several cars, each ones sound system familiar to those involved - no meters, no expectations at some visual cue point on the project screen in a mix where adjustments have been made. Often things become very apparent when only the ears are involved.
Reviews on equipment are only as good as the other gear in the reviewers chain coupled to the item being reviewed, the matching of the reviewed gear with the other components as well as the reviewers ability to properly use it. Equipment reviews and teardowns done in a professional audio environment I would trust more than reviews by users who may well not know how to use the gear, no idea of gain structure in an effects chain or be using it with cruddy ancillary gear.
Blind tests are a fairly good way of comparing similar pieces of equipment but then it comes down to which one you heard first and last - does the order of listening affect the outcome?

 

[JohnRoberts]

When I finish a mix I go out of the control room, leave the door open a crack and listen to the track from outside - it’s amazing how quickly level, compression and EQ errors become apparent when heard in mono from a distance.

I used to joke if you can hear it through a screen door while standing out in the yard it's significant...

I used to joke.

The final mix gets listened to in a car or several cars, each ones sound system familiar to those involved - no meters, no expectations at some visual cue point on the project screen in a mix where adjustments have been made. Often things become very apparent when only the ears are involved.

I knew at least one studio that had a low power FM radio transmitter to send stereo mixes out to the parking lot.

Reviews on equipment are only as good as the other gear in the reviewers chain coupled to the item being reviewed, the matching of the reviewed gear with the other components as well as the reviewers ability to properly use it. Equipment reviews and teardowns done in a professional audio environment I would trust more than reviews by users who may well not know how to use the gear, no idea of gain structure in an effects chain or be using it with cruddy ancillary gear.

Back in the 80s Martin Galley (RIP) publisher of RE/P magazine tried to interest me in writing equipment reviews, I declined. I think he also asked Paul Buff. IIRC he got Peter Butt to do a review or two, IMO Peter did a competent job.

Blind tests are a fairly good way of comparing similar pieces of equipment but then it comes down to which one you heard first and last - does the order of listening affect the outcome?

Listening tests are the final step to confirm you didn't screw up and miss something.

JR

 

[RoadrunnerOZ]

I knew at least one studio that had a low power FM radio transmitter to send stereo mixes out to the parking lot.

I built an FM transmitter from a kit for use with outdoor/drive-in movies (we tuned to a frequency not used by local radio stations) which we ran in outdoor rural parks or fields - instead of a speaker on a pole we had an PA with line array speakers for the grass seated audience outside their vehicles in front of the vehicle array area and the FM stereo for sound in the cars for those further back. I later used the same transmitter for the purpose you described and it was surprisingly good - saved burning a CD - cars back then didn’t have the USB or SD card aux inputs as standard so it was convenient.

 

[Mr. Moscode]

Not only fresh ears but critical listening is best performed over time when possible. Human audition can be a little squishy.
===

What made me so crazy back several decades ago when I was flirting with the hifi business was how variable the magazine reviews were that I received for the exact same SKU (a RIAA phono preamp). I speculate that the reviewers were hearing errors introduced by their personal playback systems and listening room acoustics. The best (glowing) review I received was from one well known reviewer who no doubt had a high performance personal playback system. Upon reflection I can only speculate that my phono preamp was not the weak link but instead revealed flaws in their systems, but they were writing the reviews, so my preamp got blamed.

JR

Been there done that. Have the scars to show for it.
Too many cross purposes. A reviewer's main job is to sell magazines and controversy helps to do that. Also, they use what ever else they are reviewing at the moment so you're at the mercy of the system DuJour.
But there's also a negative side. . .

 

[Mr. Moscode]

I used to joke if you can hear it through a screen door while standing out in the yard it's significant...

I used to joke.

I knew at least one studio that had a low power FM radio transmitter to send stereo mixes out to the parking lot.

Back in the 80s Martin Galley (RIP) publisher of RE/P magazine tried to interest me in writing equipment reviews, I declined. I think he also asked Paul Buff. IIRC he got Peter Butt to do a review or two, IMO Peter did a competent job.

Listening tests are the final step to confirm you didn't screw up and miss something.

JR

And is it "good enough" for the price point or are you shooting for a world beater?

 

[Brian Roth]

Years ago, I was Chief at a private 24 track studio owned by an ad agency. I installed what we called the Sh!t Can in the meterbridge of our consoles (originally a MCI 636 then an Otari Concept). I found a really cheap 4" speaker with a small magnet at Radio Shack and drove it with an Opamp Labs power amp (from their series of modules in octal based cans). Fed a LR monitor sum into it. Sounded pretty lousy, but it emulated a crap mono radio or TV set.

Bri

 

[RoadrunnerOZ]

When doing a TV show two days a week from the late ‘70s to the early ‘80s I made up a small 17” TV case with a plywood screen and the original speaker and 3 transistor amp board left in the case fed from a mono feed from the MCI JH500 so we could hear what the show band track mixes would sound like on the average household small telly. We also had a “horror tone” (Auratone) for other purposes but the TV case was a fixture for the show mixes.

 

[OneRoomStudio]

I always wanted to setup a weird two-way system in my control room with tweeters in front (firing up) and woofers on the sides to emulate what it sounds like in a car. Talk about a weird listening experience, which for many people is their main playback system.

 

[JohnRoberts]

When doing a TV show two days a week from the late ‘70s to the early ‘80s I made up a small 17” TV case with a plywood screen and the original speaker and 3 transistor amp board left in the case fed from a mono feed from the MCI JH500 so we could hear what the show band track mixes would sound like on the average household small telly. We also had a “horror tone” (Auratone) for other purposes but the TV case was a fixture for the show mixes.

The iconic Auratone had merit as a full range speaker with no crossovers to smear the midrange important when checking vocals.

And is it "good enough" for the price point or are you shooting for a world beater?

I made that observation back in the 70s when I was designing inexpensive audio kits. My customers were clearly motivated by low prices and saving money by assembling useful products by themselves.
===
During 15 years designing products for Peavey our customers were extremely "value" conscious. Some of Peavey's value products were indeed "world beaters" (CS800, XR600, etc).

As shocking as this may sound on more than one occasion I was designing to meet an established price point. Typically when doing the Nth refresh of a top selling SKU like a top box powered mixer. Not only did I have to meet the former versions price point but with updated and added features. But that is what they pay competent design engineers do.

[warning gratuitous Peavey anecdote] A constant problem with introducing new versions of a SKU at trade shows is helping the dealers manage their inventory. If you show the new model too soon they will stop ordering and selling the old ones. Ideally you want to ship as close to the trade show introduction as possible. I got it about perfect for one of the XR600 refresh cycles. I managed to hold the same exact price as the unit it was replacing. I had the new units ready to ship 2 weeks before the trade show it was to be introduced at. I told sales to just start filling orders for the old models with the new model. This SKU was selling thousands a month and it was a very pleasant trade show with my top dealers telling me in the booth that they had already received the new version and their customers loved them.

JR

 

[Mr. Moscode]

Years ago, I was Chief at a private 24 track studio owned by an ad agency. I installed what we called the Sh!t Can in the meterbridge of our consoles (originally a MCI 636 then an Otari Concept). I found a really cheap 4" speaker with a small magnet at Radio Shack and drove it with an Opamp Labs power amp (from their series of modules in octal based cans). Fed a LR monitor sum into it. Sounded pretty lousy, but it emulated a crap mono radio or TV set.

Bri

Like the Awfultone monitors.

 

[scondon]

Along the same lines as the Auratone, these days I find it useful and important to check mixes on the iPhone’s built in speakers.

 

[Brian Roth]

Like the Awfultone monitors.

We had a pair of those as well, along with nearfields and the big UREI's in the soffit.

Bri

 

[scott2000]

I always wanted to setup a weird two-way system in my control room with tweeters in front (firing up) and woofers on the sides to emulate what it sounds like in a car. Talk about a weird listening experience, which for many people is their main playback system.

My son blew my mind when he walked out of the auto parts store with a bluetooth thing that plugs into the lighter.....it lets you tune to an empty FM station and transmit your phone music to the car's radio....
works really well...think it was like $30

 

[RoadrunnerOZ]

Does anyone remember the old cassette that had an FM receiver inside and transferred the audio via a transducer head corresponding to the playback head of a car cassette player - cars that only had the AM receiver and a cassette unit could receive the new format radio. Now they’re doing them with aux inputs, Bluetooth and USB.

 

[RoadrunnerOZ]

We had a pair of those as well, along with nearfields and the big UREI's in the soffit.

Bri

One studio I built we had the Urei 813’s in soffits - I built a rubber isolated clamp sled frame from Oregon 4” x 2”s so they could be slid into place or removed for service - they were heavy!! 80Kg.

 

[Matt Syson]

Not read all the thread but has anyone mentioned crosstalk yet? Either indictive capacitive or resistive with corresponding differences in the frequency ranges affected. For example a high signal level (at low impedance perhaps) tracked close to low level high impedance of the 'other' channel. Even crosstalk between different parts of thezSAME channel where it has perhaps a preamp and 'line amp' in sequence. This is a soure of 'difference' in mixing console channels which can mlead to stereo width anomalies for example.

 

[jrg.roberts]

Like the Awfultone monitors.

Still use mine...