Really cheap 500 modules and racks

[Upacesky]

Hi there,
I just discovered yesterday that SM Pro Audio are launching a bunch of 500 modules and racks. Looks quite cool on the paper even though SM Pro Audio wasn't known from me to build high quality stuff.
If I think about Lindell Audio, IGS or SM Pro Audio, it's a lot of cheap 500 coming in the market. I don't think low price is always low quality, but it really made me think about DIY.
- Does it mean that those are great experimenting platforms for DIY newbies?
- Are these prices unfair or just showing that some modules were originally overpriced ?
- What do you think about cheap and maybe good quality gear like that?

I hope I don't start a typical Gearslutz thread here...

 

[JohnRoberts]

Low volume products from small companies cost them more to build, so they sell for more if the company is going to survive.

Time will tell is they can expand the market to make a profit at low price with higher volume, or will lose money.

JR

 

[emrr]

SM Pro Audio: at a glance looks like they use many of the typical cost cutting measures seen in low cost audio products.  A tube preamp with SS input and output circuitry, for instance.  ART Tube MP, anyone?  At least one of the 500 racks uses external AC input, which I thought was being regulated out of existence in most countries. 

Look at our own 51X rack and PSU, even as kits they aren't cheaper than buying an API rack. 

I think almost everyone here underestimates the cost of doing business in the international marketplace.  There are a ton of hopefuls offering cheap wares, and most of them will go under after eating their shirts.  It's like recording studios and nightclubs as well, it's a 'cool' thing to be involved in, so there are many players who aren't really 'in business' but have a lot of play money to throw around.  Then there's the Walmart/Toys-R-Us phenomenon; if you can sell 30 bazillion of anything it can be offered very low, and the audio market is very very tiny in comparison, so products that appear to have similar per item costing mechanisms cost vastly more in audio due to production quantities. 

 

[warpie]

So, if you start selling in low volumes (inevitably) you have to sell for more

but...

if the product/company takes off, it's not good practice to lower the price, because people would think the quality got worse, right?

hmm, confusing...

 

[gemini86]

You have a point there...

There's going to be a group of consumers that always equate cost with quality. If it's low cost/high value, they see that as low cost/cheaply made... One way to get around this is to have promotions that lower the cost from full retail, and allow you to sell it for a limited time, making it seem like it's just a really great opportunity for just about any buyer to jump at.

 

[emrr]

Conversely, a new company trying to break in with low cost products can never step up to a higher level than where they started.  You have to start a new brand to do that. 

 

[gemini86]

...or put "custom shop" at the end of the brand name...

works for fender, gibson, yamaha, etc...right?

 

[jplebre]

we have some SMPro "opto" compressors. they are utterly uselless.
This is my own opinion, and of some of my colleagues, Nothing personal, not intended as an attack.

It is utterly cheap. But I think you need to weight the actual usefulness of it.
having outboard was a necessity at some point, now it's more of a flavour choice. But if the outboard is actually damaging, then what's the point?

My view on SM

 

[JohnRoberts]

I faced the classic brand image price confusion back in the '1980s. I had a reasonably successful kit business but the world was changing on me, the expanding use of assembly automation meant that low cost manufacturers could sell assembled units competitively with my kits. Since the majority of my customers were building kits to save money, that whole business model collapsed (look at Heath Kit for more proof of the trend). 

I was already selling low quantity of assembled kits, but my price for those was too cheap to afford serious marketing or distribution mark-ups. I couldn't just flip a switch and double my list prices without push back from the marketplace. I decided to disappear for a few years and reenter the consumer audio market closer to the top. I went to Peavey planning to only work there for a few years and ended up staying for 15 years.  8)

I find the low volume esoteric audio market more of a marketing exercise and schmoozing the customers as needed. I know guys who are very good at that and have enjoyed some success, I have since discovered that I am not good at it so don't try.  IMO the product performance is not the larger issue there, brand performance is.

A merchandising argument of "same as for less money" in a mature and low volume market is hard to believe because the math doesn't work. 

JR

PS re: custom shop guitars... the grass always looks greener in your neighbors yard. Large guitar companies make their money selling the high volume cheaper stuff, but usually have a custom shop to make special instruments for artists and the like. They would gladly expand the manufacturing to sell as many high end instruments as they could but generally the sales just are not there.  It is difficult for a brand to inhabit more than one position in the market's eye. I have seen few attempts and fewer successes.

 

[emrr]

I find the low volume esoteric audio market more of a marketing exercise and schmoozing the customers as needed. I know guys who are very good at that and have enjoyed some success, I have since discovered that I am not good at it so don't try.  IMO the product performance is not the larger issue there, brand performance is.

Indeed.

 

[Meathands]

In answer to the (implied?) "how can they make them so cheap?" question, don't under-estimate the cost difference between truly quality and just-passing-muster parts.

I haven't looked under the hood of Lindell or SM Pro Audio units, but I can bet you won't find much from Bourns, Grayhill, C&K, THAT corp., etc---companies that actually make parts as well as they can.

Cheaper goods aren't always the result of better efficiency or finding a weakness in the market. Often, someone's just found a way to externalize a cost so you don't see it in the price tag. In this case, it's the cost of maintaining your gear should you want to use it regularly for many years.

 

[Echo North]

In answer to the (implied?) "how can they make them so cheap?" question, don't under-estimate the cost difference between truly quality and just-passing-muster parts.

I haven't looked under the hood of Lindell or SM Pro Audio units, but I can bet you won't find much from Bourns, Grayhill, C&K, THAT corp., etc---companies that actually make parts as well as they can.

Cheaper goods aren't always the result of better efficiency or finding a weakness in the market. Often, someone's just found a way to externalize a cost so you don't see it in the price tag. In this case, it's the cost of maintaining your gear should you want to use it regularly for many years.

I have seen the insides of most of these lines of products (overseas assembly).  You won't even find Panasonic, Nichicon or Fairchild parts.  Every corner possible has been cut.

 

[JohnRoberts]

I also see the all too common and IMO incorrect association that expensive parts must be better.  I learned pretty early on that clever design can often accomplish a lot for very little cost. As the semiconductor industry evolved to reduce the noise and increase the performance from ICs this cost/quality association became even weaker. I did a lot of great audio work at Peavey that was mostly under appreciated but that customer was all about features and bang for the buck, and the customer is always right.

There is a certain amount of gear snobbery "I'll only use blah blah transformers in my studio path" fueled by partial understanding of the technology if that. I only experienced one product market that insisted on transformer outputs for practical reasons that justified the cost. In the fixed install market transformer constant voltage speaker feeds can tolerate one output line being accidentally shorted without affecting the audio. The benefit of avoiding service calls in that business is real and worth the cost difference to them.

Expensive parts, just like expensive products are very often expensive because of low volume sales. When does something being unpopular make it more valuable (never).  I do not discount the placebo effect of customers having an expectation bias. On my last phono preamp kit, I used gold plated RCA jacks, not because I expected them to work better, but because I expected my customers to expect them to work better. But like i said, I was not cut out for that flim-flam game.

JR

 

[emrr]

Hearsay suggests while Lindell advertises '990 op amp compatible', they ship with a soldered 5532.  Well gee, I guess they can't include a $50 part in something that sells retail for $299, now can they?  Nothing against 5532's, of course. 

I did contact Lindell directly and he said it was a definite possibility to use a 990c but the thing he did mention was he didnt know how large the pins are on the 990 and the pads might be too small for it. Im also considering the GAR2520 from Classic API and see how that works. He did say I would have to adjust the bias and the gain from the trim pots but Ill cross that road when I get that far.

Check this out:

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/geekslutz-forum/830642-lindel-6x-500-replace-5532-990c.html

 

[Meathands]

I agree, John--you won't find any $5 opamps in my Mouser cart. But I'm happy to shell out 10x the lowest price for high quality pots, switches, connectors, relays, even knobs. Think of all the tech repair work that is simply replacing cheap electro-mechanicals that made that piece of gear such a "bargain."

But the truth is a lot of this cheapo gear sounds great and will probably hold up in the studio longer than most people sustain a studio or interest in recording.

 

[strangeandbouncy]

Hi,


  Allow me to put that "hearsay" to bed. I just looked at my Lindell eq, and it has a genuine, pluggable DOA. (surface mount components).

  They sound pretty good to me, and cost remarkably little. That's why I bought them.

  If they wanted to sell something more expensive, I am sure they could have assembled in the US, and used more expensive components. They didn't.


    ANdyP

 

[ppa]

Low volume products from small companies cost them more to build, so they sell for more if the company is going to survive.

I agree with you, BTW I think that high cost is a false problem because people think that cheap often is equal to bad quality 

 

[JohnRoberts]

Low volume products from small companies cost them more to build, so they sell for more if the company is going to survive.

I agree with you, BTW I think that high cost is a false problem because people think that cheap often is equal to bad quality

That is the curse of success at low price points. I guess my cheap kit business was good training for me working at low cost Peavey.  It's inexpensive so it must be crap... 

JR

 

[Ethan]

It's a strange paradox.  If a successful "high-end" company starts developing more cost-effective products often the consumer perception is that they've "sold out" and started making cheap junk.  But it's likely they have learned to be more cost-effective and efficient (and more marketable).  There are many companies that develop great products at an affordable price point.

I think the bigger problem in pro audio is that we don't have any real objective, quantifiable standards to judge performance.  As soon as someone touts a product based on real specs, someone else comes along and says, "Puh! Specs don't matter, it's all about the souuund man!".  And round and round it goes.

When in doubt, DIY! 8)

 

[JohnRoberts]

I agree, John--you won't find any $5 opamps in my Mouser cart. But I'm happy to shell out 10x the lowest price for high quality pots, switches, connectors, relays, even knobs. Think of all the tech repair work that is simply replacing cheap electro-mechanicals that made that piece of gear such a "bargain."

But the truth is a lot of this cheapo gear sounds great and will probably hold up in the studio longer than most people sustain a studio or interest in recording.

The significantly better modern opamps didn't really exist when I was actively designing audio paths. I could probably find a home for one or two uber opamps say in a master section summing amp (with 100+ feeds to L/R). Despite that I found good socket homes for many thousands of __5532, __074 etc.

One thing i learned from 15 years working at a value product maker, you can always find parts "so cheap they don't work".  ;D As ridiculous as that sounds, our purchasing agents receive a never ending parade of small vendors from who-knows-where offering to sell us pots for $0.04 instead of the $0.065 we were paying in hundreds of K volume for merchantable parts. Same thing for caps, resistors, everything.

I had one purchasing agent who was so motivated to earn a cost savings reward from getting me to approve his $0.04 pot that I finally agreed to a thousand piece test run in the factory. Not really a lot of units when you use 20+ pots per board. As it turned out the pots were crap just like I suspected, and the factory ended up having to remove every single pots to replace with the good $0.065 ones.  Not only was the purchasing agent pissed off at me because he didn't get his cost savings award, but now the factory workers were mad at me for the extra work I caused them. Oh well I suspect I made a lot less people unhappy than if I approved the crap parts.  8)

Where low end gear can really get in trouble is if the products are being assembled thousands of miles away, and some factory manager decides to substitute the crap part for the cheap but works part. That's why you need boots on the ground in China and to specify all components by approved vandor.

As I've said before it is harder to make good gear inexpensively. If a small manufacturer has huge fixed overhead and high labor cost, it is a false economy to save pennies on the parts and spend dollars on the hand pushing them into a PCB.  It's all math. I recall the difficulty I had explaining to a factory supervisor that maybe they shouldn't use a minimum wage line worker to hand install some $7 microprocessors (This was a long time ago). It doesn't take too many bent pins and scrapped parts to justify having the plant manager insert the expensive parts, but they never quite figured that out. Factory people are small picture managers, not big picture P and L thinkers. 

JR