Revising History

[living sounds]

I sympathise and identify with many of the things you have said.  I love Motown and all Black music (before rap).  I think that the Black phrasing of the English language made Rock n Roll possible and the hijacking of R&B from Black Churches sealed the deal.  James Jameson is an idol of mine, in terms of bass playing anyways.  I adore Indian cooking, its the best!

All of these things and other too many to mention, add richness to life, which is just what you have found.  My problem is that in many areas we have been swamped to the point where our original culture has gone for good.  This is not all down to excess immigration, the younger generations have abandoned older values too, English churches that have been neglected and converted to mosques makes you feel very weird about where you grew up.

In the end, it all comes down to the degree of change that one can tolerate, music and food choices are one thing, loss of entire cities is quite another.  Before 1975, I had never seen a vandalised telephone box (kiosk) and graffiti, now its everywhere and England has so much litter its disgusting.  So many kids have tattoos it seems like entire generations have low self-esteem and want to pierce themselves or practice self-harm or shave their heads like they just underwent cancer treatment or something.

I just don't want this in my face anymore, and here in rural France it does not exist.  I can make tube gear and send it to people who still make actual music and can appreciate the sound of it, instead of manipulating samples someone else made.

DaveP

I get what you're saying. I'm not a fan of many of these trends either. But they can hardly be laid at the feet of foreign-born people. Immigrants coming from developing countries actually tend to be more conservative and controlling towards their children's behaviour and appearance than middle and lower class natural born citizens.

Also, though I dislike tatoos and piercings, I still find this still preferable to the wigs, white-powdered faces and stuffed-out crotches of Baraque times, for example. It is all relative, and it also will go away again eventually.

I also don't think values have shifted in a negative direction overall. A lot of uglyness was hidden in the "good old days" (often by, at least outwardly, religious people, BTW), whereas many statistics actually show improvements. This current revolution has young people around the world fight for equality and fairness based on universalist principles - great! Remember people lamenting the apolitic youth during the 90s and 00s?

Yes, certain cultural attitudes are fading, but I don't consider this to be necessarily a bad thing. Germans for example have long had a well deserved reputation for serverity, rigid thinking and lacking a sense of humor. This has improved quite a bit in recent decades, thank goodness. It also means that those who resisted that change dug themselves in deeper.

And the past? The past is a foreign country, too.

 

[scott2000]

I also don't think values have shifted in a negative direction overall. A lot of uglyness was hidden in the "good old days" (often by, at least outwardly, religious people, BTW), whereas many statistics actually show improvements.

Agree ...no more wigs, white-powdered faces and stuffed-out crotches .....lol

Here Dave since you're not into some Tyga....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIaT8Jl2zpI

 

[ruffrecords]

I think you can only lead by personal example. Like Dave I am a baby boomer and I remember being fascinated by the first immigrants I saw. When I started work I came into direct contact with them and thoroughly enjoyed the cultural exchange (mostly recipes) and I think they did too. In 1980 I joined PA consulting and was first send on a two week induction course. I was on the International version of this course, held in London and there were people from all  over the world of all colours, creeds etc etc. We got on famously over the two weeks and often went out for an evening drink at the local pub where I introduced them to the English concept of 'your round'.

My had a similar experience before we met. She lived in a multicultural street in the 60s. The neighbours would always take each others washing in if the weather turned bad and were generally simply good neighbours. Why people find it so hard to get along escapes me. Don't expect  governments to provide solutions. They have to come from each person to every other person.

I have never seen this as a problem but an opportunity to learn and grow.

Cheers

Ian

 

[cyrano]

Why people find it so hard to get along escapes me.

There's simply too many of us...

That leads to the false impression that immigrants are the problem. WE were here first, weren't we?

 

[Winston OBoogie]

There's simply too many of us...

That leads to the false impression that immigrants are the problem. WE were here first, weren't we?

Well yes, there are too many of us on the planet for our resources.  But I was talking with my girlfriend yesterday and, maybe I'm just starting to get jaded on our species.

Consider this:  We know know that, at one point in our history, we cohabitated and mated with at least, 2 other of the Human Genus - Neanderthals and Denisovans.    But we're the only ones left. 
Did we eventually kill them all because they looked slightly different than we did?  Did we do the same with the other specie of Human too?

A dark thought I know.

 

[DaveP]

It's possible that we wiped them out even though they were much more powerful than us, but it is more likely that we were able to adapt to the changing climate better. (last Ice age).  They had been living in the same way for 50,000 years so not very progressive.

DaveP

 

[Winston OBoogie]

It's possible that we wiped them out even though they were much more powerful than us, but it is more likely that we were able to adapt to the changing climate better. (last Ice age).  They had been living in the same way for 50,000 years so not very progressive.

DaveP

Yeah, I like that theory much better than mine for sure.
Only thing that made me hesitate on it yesterday was that Neanderthals had made it through an Ice Age already and to not do so again would be a regression. 
Still, I'll hold on to your theory should it stop me sleeping at night  Again.

 

[living sounds]

Consider this:  We know know that, at one point in our history, we cohabitated and mated with at least, 2 other of the Human Genus - Neanderthals and Denisovans.    But we're the only ones left. 
Did we eventually kill them all because they looked slightly different than we did?  Did we do the same with the other specie of Human too?

There is a theory that Neanderthals were ill-adapted to tolerating smoke (or rather, its chemical byproducts). Homo sapiens on the other hand can tolerate it exceptionally well. This would have been a significant advantage in terms of cooking food, especially indoors (or in-cave, in-tent etc.).

 

[Winston OBoogie]

Just found the below article which was worth a quick read.

Didn't put my mind at ease regarding us being a violent lot  that wiped others into extinction,  but it did bring it right back to Cyrano's  "too many of us" .

https://www.sciencealert.com/did-homo-sapiens-kill-off-all-the-other-humans

Edit:  Cool, just read your post Living Sounds, makes sense too

 

[living sounds]

Humans very likely wiped out most of the megafauna before recorded history starts. No use loosing sleep over facts (or our current understanding of them) of prehistoric nature IMO. We can only change what is in front of us.

 

[Winston OBoogie]

Humans very likely wiped out most of the megafauna before recorded history starts. No use loosing sleep over facts (or our current understanding of them) of prehistoric nature IMO. We can only change what is in front of us.

Of course, I know that really but it's appreciated   

I listened to Beethoven's Fifth twice last night, Ludwigs emotion and inspiration for change of the old order.  Works for me anyway.

 

[manulaudic]

It's possible that we wiped them out even though they were much more powerful than us, but it is more likely that we were able to adapt to the changing climate better. (last Ice age).  They had been living in the same way for 50,000 years so not very progressive.

DaveP

If you read French i recommend you to read "cataclysmes" by Laurent Testot, it's a great read on human history.

 

[DaveP]

Thanks for the tip, but $68 is too much for a book I will struggle to read.

One I can recommend is  "Who we are and how we got here" by David Reich.  It shows the paths of human migration throughout the world through ancient DNA.

DaveP

 

[manulaudic]

Thanks for the tip, but $68 is too much for a book I will struggle to read.

One I can recommend is  "Who we are and how we got here" by David Reich.  It shows the paths of human migration throughout the world through ancient DNA.

DaveP

The book is 11€, i have no idea where you got the 68dollars haha
https://livre.fnac.com/a12022953/TESTOT-LAURENT-Cataclysmes
https://www.amazon.fr/Cataclysmes-Une-histoire-environnementale-lhumanité-ebook/dp/B06XXKR67N

 

[DaveP]

My search took me to Amazon US, so one hell of a mark-up!

DaveP

 

[manulaudic]

My search took me to Amazon US, so one hell of a mark-up!

DaveP

I see ! Well it's worth the read, it's written as a "movie" so it's not that hard to get into as a non native.
I'll check the david Reich one

M

 

[scott2000]

My search took me to Amazon US, so one hell of a mark-up!

DaveP

It's very interesting to compare how different  engines pull up searches.  I literally can't find some things within a short time until I switch to the duck.  But some things are just better when using the big G...

 

[CJ]

Ireland is the only country that never has problems with other cultures.

Of course, they don't let anybody into their country,

Not a lot of love left in the world today.  No wonder we never get invaded by aliens.  They probably think we are crazy.

 

[DaveP]

Yes they do.................. last time I went it was full of Latvians, Estonians, Lithuanians and Poles,  I think the fact it is a Catholic country was a secondary draw after the short lived economic boom.

DaveP

 

[living sounds]

It's very interesting to compare how different  engines pull up searches.  I literally can't find some things within a short time until I switch to the duck.  But some things are just better when using the big G...

IMO the internet is broken. Commercial interests of various kinds are to blame. And then came smartphones and tablets, now you cannot look through most internet forums or portals and get all kinds of useless information instead of a nice, neat list.

If anyone is aware of a third-party app to browse through ebay please let me know.