Ribbon Mic : Magnetic return circuit

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Consul

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 3, 2004
Messages
1,653
Location
Port Huron, Michigan, USA
Okay, I Googled all over, and I couldn't find anything to help me on this one.

What is a magentic return circuit in a ribbon microphone, and why are they important?

I've been trying to follow along with Toobie and El Fito, but am afraid I'm completely lost on this one point.

Thank you all!
 
The voltage generated at the output of the ribbon mic is directly related to the amplitude of the movement of the ribbon and the strength of the magnetic field. If you have two magnets, one at the left side of the ribbon and one of the right, the magnetic field will close through the air. The air has extremely bad magnetic characteristics. To have an efficient magnetic field at the place where the ribbon moves, you have to close the magnetic circuit (outside the magnets) with some material that has very good magnetic properties. Iron is good choice for this.
Just think about it like in electronics, if the magnetic field is closed by air it is like you would have a high value resistor (kilo ohms) and if you close the magnetic field with iron is like you have a small value resistor (ohms).
Associate the resulted magnetic field with current through the resistors, small current (weak magnetic field) for the kilo ohm resistor and high current (strong magnetic field) for the ohm resistor.

chrissugar
 
Look at the pics related to ribbon mics:
http://230nsc1.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/audio/mic2.html
you will understand from the look of the magnet (circular) how the magnetic circuit will close.

chrissugar
 
well... I'm not sure If I am the best person to answer this .... but...

here is my best understanding of what I have learned so far...
PLEASE FEEL FREE TO CONFIRM OR CORRECT!!!!!

mrc.JPG


Example A: is correct and has connetions to the outside ONLY (polar opposite of the ribbon gap)

PLEASE..... FEEL FREE..... TO... !!!!CONFIRM OR CORRECT !!!

Example B: shows the setup I have now on my TCA 74b ....a exact clone of the RCA 74b as it pertains to the MRC.

example B shows a short between the poles at the front and back of the magnet structure.... this is something that has been pointed out to me in my design (well ... RCA's design)

I am getting great results from this setup... :grin:

hope this helps....
ts
 
OK... I waited and waited and when I decided to draw this out there was no reply to this thread.... as i drew and typed these other posts were made

all facts seem to support my drawing....

i wish this drawing was here when i was trying to understand the MRC...

now it's here for all for future reference......

the misunderstanding of this has caused me considerable work and re-design efforts...some of which are still not complete..... (See ts builds a ribbon mic....)

so you see....i just had to do it :grin: i don't want anyone to go through the troubles I have had to experience with this confusing subject..

later
ts
 
Additionally:

As PRR has stated:

iron is 1000 times more reactive to magnetics than any other material on earth with some very small exceptions....( See PRR quote at my ribbon mic thread(s))

THIS IS EXTREMELY IMPORTANT!

this is why ..... Iron is "THE material" for MRC's.

hope this helps
later
ts
 
Okay, so the whole idea is to loop the magnetic fields around on the outside of the magnets. That's what I was thinking, but for some reason, it made no sense to me. I didn't think you would care about the sides of the magnets not facing the ribbons. Then again, I haven't taken my physics courses yet.

So as long as you have some kind of ferromagnetic loop from one side to the other, you're fine? I know that Royer mentions that the actual case of their microphones, made of stainless, serves as the magnetic return for their designs.

Just when I thought I was finally understanding something, a monkey wrench gets thrown in...

Thank you all for your insight!
 
Consul

If you read the in depth reply PRR made at one of my ribbon mic threads (or wait i think it is: "metal and magnetics") he explains the different metals and there magnetic properties... there may be some mention of stainless steel ... iron is so plentifuland easily available ... and it is the best material... other materials can work...check the PRR post to get the complete info.

this example I have provided is not THE best example of a magnetic return circuit but...it is the most common and... IMHO ... it is the easiest to understand...

to illustrate:

If the magetic energy is allowed to flow from ...both...the front and the back simultaneously it provies THE most efficient MRC.

xvlk has offered the most optimum design info in which:...

the magnets are placed "inside" series of metal rings ...which provide you magnet mounts, your MRC, the grill and the enclosure....i think it's really cool.... one item you should note is that : xvlk has stated that this needs a custom grinded neodymium for this design.... I am currntly working on some design ideas which may be a compromise .... but still provide the needed aspects. info to come as I discover it... :wink:

XVLK has posted a drawing illustrating this ring design.... I beleive it is in "ribbon clamp noise figures" something like that.... search posts made by xvlk and ribbon. you should be able to find it....if I come across it I'll post you a link.

hope this help with that monkey wrench ...haha...
checking that PRR post should provide the additional information to make things crystal clear for you .... :grin: and others :grin:

later
ts
 
to complete: PRR statement on metal and magnetics

In electric circuits, we have conductors (copper) and insulators (plastic). Actually, we have a broad range: copper is very good, iron less good, but any metal is many thousands of times more conductive than plastic, dry wood, etc.

In magnetic circuits there are only two materials:

1) Iron

2) anything else

Empty space, air, wood, brass, animals minerals and vegetables are all "the same". We define the magnetic conductivity of empty space as "1.000000", and these other materials run 1.0000 to 1.001 or so.

The main exception is iron. Iron has magnetic conductivity around 1,000, a LOT more than air or brass. Wave a magnet around the world, and there is no doubt when you hit some iron.

Small exception: Nickel and some other metals and alloys are magnetic, just not as high as iron. Stainless Steel can run from not much more than 1 to way over 100. (And generally, the "better" it is for stainless-ness, the less it sticks to a magnet: really-stainless steel has so much Chrome in it that it breaks-up the iron magnetic domains and seals the raw iron away from air and water.)

When reading a magnetic circuit, ignore all the non-iron to get the basic shape. THEN go back and remember that all the air/brass/etc also conducts magnetism a little. 1/1000 as much as iron, but there is air everywhere: a small leakage over a large surface is a significant shunt on the intended magnetic-gap.

now.... done.... :grin:


Also: i must add ....
that I beleive that my / (rca's) configuration is NOT so much shorting the magnetic NS ... the rays of electrons will still have the same orientation but the iron will facilitate a less resistive path ... and... all will function normally

as an example: if i placed a magnet on a metal sheet and spread some fine metal particles on the sheet of metal....
the same energy patterns would be shown THROUGH the metal sheet.... right?

anyway... :grin: hope this helps

later
ts
 
Thanks for all the helpful posts, Toobie. I guess the question that still eludes me is why it's so necessary to close the magnetic circuit. It seems to me that once you have your ribbon in a nice and tight magnetic field (between two neodymium magnets), then you need not care about the magnet faces on the opposite sides from the ribbon. As I said, I guess there's some physics here that I'm missing out on somewhere.
 
Ok one thing ...careful ...careful.... :wink:

It seems to me that once you have your ribbon in a nice and tight magnetic field (between two neodymium magnets), then you need not care about the magnet faces on the opposite sides from the ribbon

with NEODYMIUM MAGNETS ....the AIR is a good enough MRC
remember the air DOES have some desirable qualities....

as to why the MRC boosts flux????....
hmmmm.... i think someone else can answer this better .... xvlk? .... PRR?

later
ts
PS...If you compare a magnet to a battery it seems to make a little sense.... but..... the physics would be nice... :grin: ther was a website I posted a "metal and magnetics" maybe some more reading there is in order... :grin:
 
Yeah, I have a bundle of 1 inch long by 1/4 by 1/4 inch Neos that are magnetized through the thickness (two of the 1" by 1/4" sides are the poles) and I was going to use four in my mic design. I saw El Fito's one-day ribbon mic build and it gave me a few ideas to try.
 
yeah those are nice and thick... fito is using much thinner magnets...
fito what are your measurements?
also consul... do you know the grade of your magnets?
35 maybe... this determines the strenght.
fito is a great guy and does nice work
I recommend his first design.. and those U channels ... very convenient
after knowing what I know I saw some really cool U channel for my MRC with ceramic magnets at the hardware store....
I am ordering some neo's for my next experiment... it WILL be cool too.
I have 2 designs in mind ...xvlk's recommended "ring" mic and another
incarnation of my own... :shock: :grin:

ALSO: i'm tryint to get some interest in a group buy on some custom grinded neo's...interested?

later
ts
 
[quote author="ToobieSnack"]
ALSO: i'm tryint to get some interest in a group buy on some custom grinded neo's...interested?
[/quote]

Definitely interested.
 
hey people...
scenario/question

I had planned to use neodymium "booster" magnets placed on the outside of my magnets in my first ribbon mic ( TS-1)

I am adding a magneteic return circuit....

question: if i were to complete my MRC and add the neodymium to the outside of the magnetic return circuit would the pole orientation still be correct?

my magnetic return "plates" on the outsides would be "sandwiched" between 2 magnets....with both N nad S touching my MRC..from opposite sides of the MRC.... ( because opposites attract)

AS AN OPTION: should I put the "booster" magnet "under the MRC "plates"?

this way the magets woiuld be joined together and the MRC will be outside "both" magnets...

I have read ... that when you connect the 2 magnets together they will act like ONE magnet ....EG: the poles will re-orient themselves..and combine...

can anyone answer this problem???

as alway your kind comments help and suggestions are sincerely appreciated
thanks
ts
 
Hmmmm ....is there nobody who can answer the previous question? (quoted below .... no need to reload the previous page)

am I on my own .... once again?????? :sad:

please advise

thanks
ts

hey people...
scenario/question

I had planned to use neodymium "booster" magnets placed on the outside of my magnets in my first ribbon mic ( TS-1)

I am adding a magneteic return circuit....

question: if i were to complete my MRC and add the neodymium to the outside of the magnetic return circuit would the pole orientation still be correct?

my magnetic return "plates" on the outsides would be "sandwiched" between 2 magnets....with both N nad S touching my MRC..from opposite sides of the MRC.... ( because opposites attract)

AS AN OPTION: should I put the "booster" magnet "under the MRC "plates"?

this way the magets woiuld be joined together and the MRC will be outside "both" magnets...

I have read ... that when you connect the 2 magnets together they will act like ONE magnet ....EG: the poles will re-orient themselves..and combine...

can anyone answer this problem???
 
PS as an analogy of the previous question:

aren't there speakers which use a design wereby:

two circular magnets are placed on opposite sides of a metal circular plate which act as pole peices.

wouldn't this be similar to what I am tryiong to do?

someone with some brains PLEASE answer this.... :!:
this IS a good question....

later
ts
 
[quote author="ToobieSnack"]I have read ... that when you connect the 2 magnets together they will act like ONE magnet ....EG: the poles will re-orient themselves..and combine...
[/quote]
Every you need is linear magnetostatics, e.g Hophinsons law.
Magnet acts as batery. If you connect batteries to the series
by connecting oposite poles, you have twice voltage.
If you connect two batteries to the serie by connecting the some pole,
you get zero voltage. With the magnets it is the some.
(but putting magnets to the series with the some poles together is too difficult)
Putting magnets to the series is simple, because opposite poles atracts.
Putting magnets to the paralel is difficult, but sometimes needed.

xvlk
 
[quote author="xvlk"][quote author="ToobieSnack"]I have read ... that when you connect the 2 magnets together they will act like ONE magnet ....EG: the poles will re-orient themselves..and combine...
[/quote]
Every you need is linear magnetostatics, e.g Hophinsons law.
Magnet acts as batery. If you connect batteries to the series
by connecting oposite poles, you have twice voltage.
If you connect two batteries to the serie by connecting the some pole,
you get zero voltage. With the magnets it is the some.
(but putting magnets to the series with the some poles together is too difficult)
Putting magnets to the series is simple, because opposite poles atracts.
Putting magnets to the paralel is difficult, but sometimes needed.

xvlk[/quote]

I was told by magnet manufacturer that two Neodimium magnets put together give about 10% less magnetic field than the same size solid piece.
 
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