Scam attempt or not? What do you think. .

[lassoharp]

Yesterday I got an email response for an amp I'd had FS over at Audio Asylum. The guy was in Canada (I'm in the US) and wanted to know if a certified MO was ok for payment.

Several things make me leery of this transaction.

During our conversation I was surprised to find out he knew little or nothing of the amp he was attempting to buy.  He asked me questions and gave responses in a manner that almost seemed calculated to produce the impression of someone helplessly naive - often reaffirming me by saying things like: " yeah I can tell by your answers that you're a real expert" - I'd merely told him that the amp works, has 1/4" input jacks and is rated at 200W/channel into 4 ohms.  He kept fumbling through questions in a manner that gave me the feeling I was being deliberately baited by making me feel like 'the smart guy'.

Also, his emailed response arrived exactly one night before my listing expired.  I found out he was not a member of the Asylum forum and when asked how he found the listing he plodded awkwardly through an explanation of how he was looking for this "Altec amp he could not remember the name of" and suddenly found it through a google search (it does show up on page one - if the correct model # is used, otherwise - potluck).  Upon finding out the listing had expired the day after he responded he made a big to do about how "lucky he was to find the amp of his dreams at the last minute"  :

In my first email response I specifically asked him to remove any caller ID block when contacting me by phone.  When he called, the number came up as private.  He did give me a phone # but there's 10 ways around that.

So far he hasn't tried anything outrageous like the typical scammers do - "My associate has overpaid you 5 grand!  Send me the difference and keep $500 for your troubles!"  (and don't forget to smile for the police blotter pic when they charge you for trying to pass a bad check) 

I tried to back out gently by dissuading him with shipping costs ($350 FedEx to clear customs, $100+ if he does it himself) but he asked me to check with USPS.

So am I being a paranoid cynic or is this one for the birds?

I'm sure some of you have been through the rounds with a scammer or two.  Any fail/safe suggestions?   

 

[seavote]

i've learned that my instinct,  "gut feelling" is right 90% of the time.

 

[Mbira]

Why not just tell him you need a different payment method?

 

[owel]

What's a certified MO (money order)?
Is this the same as a Certified Check?  If I were you, I'd ask for a bank certified check, drawn in USD.
And wait till the check clears (it should clear anyway if it's certified bank check).

 

[lassoharp]

Thanks for the advice guys

There was a time when money orders were considered reasonably 'safe'.  Apparently these 'certified' ones are easy to forge.  One scammer sent me a fake one several months back from a Craigs list ad even after I'd basically told him several times to stop contacting me.  I was told by a Postal clerk that a US Postal MO should be guaranteed but I don't have that option here. I have no idea how things work in Canada.  There may be a bunch of loop holes.

I haven't finalized anything yet but it sounds like certified bank or money wire would be the safest option. 

If it is a scam attempt there's sure to be a twist laid on at the last minute. 

I was also curious if anyone had ever been contacted from a specific forum classified ad from a non-forum member.

 

[owel]

When I was looking for a DX7, I saw an ad on a pastor's forum. I contacted the pastor/church to buy the keyboard.

I think I paid via check.  The church/pastor didn't have a paypal account.

 

[blue_luke]

Hi Lassoharp!  
Maybe I can give you two advices here, one since I am sometimes in the same position as you, the other because I am Canadian.

First, if it does not feell god, then it's no good!

If there is something you don't feel right about the transaction, just don't sell to him!
I am a bit active on Ebay , I don't know about craig list etc... but If you think he is a scammer, report him and let HIM figure it out with craig list or ebay or whatever...
Besides, there are other interested in your product, so its only a matter of time to sell it.

My oder advice is about Canadian Money Orders... They are fine, I use them from time to time.
I go to the post office and ask for a MO drawn in whatever currency I want, pay the fees and exchange etc... and I keep a receipt and send you the original.
It is safe, garanteed by the Queen herself   but I find it rather expensive, and it is probably a bit of PIB for you to exchange it.
Personnaly, I sue Paypall and credit cards for my transactions over the net.
For this I have a credit card limited at 400$, so to sort of limits the damage in case of fraud!

I never had any problems so far, but keep a sharp eye and if you like the taste of it, don'nt get into it!

Luc

 

[lassoharp]

Hi Blue Luke!

So I can request him to get a Canadian Postal MO drawn in US currency?  And this would be a safe route to go?

 

[coniglius]

Why would you risk it? The only safe method would be Western Union, or cash. Period. And good luck getting them to go for that. If they pay via PayPal with a CC, they can do a chargeback, get their money back from their CC company and PayPal holds you responsible. Money orders can be forged or stolen and used. Fact. Every craigslist correspondence that goes out says right on it not to deal with money orders or shipping because of the possible scams. Listen to them!

Here's another very ingenious scam that you're not even safe on ebay from. Say you have a large, expensive item like an amp or a guitar (something over 40lbs and over $1K). The buyer pays you via PayPal and has you declare it for the full value for insurance purposes. You ship the item and the buyer refuses to accept it upon delivery. It is then held in customs in the destination country until the customs fee is paid for it (usually something like $500). In the meantime the buyer contacts PayPal for a refund for item not received and they will get it . It is then your responsibility to pay the customs fee *and* the return shipping fee for the item *and* the US customs fee for the return of the item if you want to get it back. At that point you've racked up something equal or almost equal to the value of the item itself. Awhile later the buyer then pays the customs fee and picks up the item for only the cost of the customs fee.

I learned about this when shipping a $2K guitar to Germany fully insured for the whole amount. Shipping was around $200 from US to Germany. The VAT on the guitar was over $500. Buyer paid via PayPal. I used DHL International as they're the only ones who require a signature. I then watched tracking and saw "buyer refused shipment" twice in a row. I called DHL and they had no information but "volunteered" that the recipient probably refused it because of the high import tax. I asked them what happens next and they explained to me that the item wasn't going anywhere until "someone" paid the tax and if I wanted it back then that was going to be me, plus return shipping (which they quoted me  nearly double what I paid to have it sent there) plus import tax to get it back in the US. I contacted PayPal and they said that if there was no proof the buyer had received the item, then their claim would be honored, period. Regardless of the circumstances; those are the seller's responsibility. The buyer could then wait the 30 or 90 days or whatever for the PayPal case to close and then just go and pick up the item for the cost of the import tax only. And DHL said they keep items for a bit longer than that statute before they ultimately go off to auction. In the meantime I wasn't getting any response from the buyer... I was scared shitless over this and sick to my stomach for a good 2 or 3 days until the buyer finally accepted the package. Then I hear from the buyer that DHL asked him to hand over the extra $500 but didn't explain it was for customs so he didn't accept it at first.

Even if it wasn't a scam and the buyer just decided they don't want to pay the import tax after all I'd still be SOL for the same reasons. It's for this reason that anything over say 15 lbs or so I will not ship overseas unless the transaction is Western Union. And in most cases it's stuff I know I could probably get next to double for. It's just not worth going through that again. My two cents.

 

[emrr]

Take a bank transfer, WU, cash, etc.  My bank just decided to hold a Canadian Postal MO for 15 business days; didn't even show up as pending until it cleared.  They tell me there are very good US PMO forgeries out there, so sounds like any and all PMO, MO, cashiers check, etc are all now considered suspect by banks. 

 

[okgb]

My Canadian Credit Union WON'T accept U.S. postal money orders
and with the whole paypal  /ebay exchange rate extortion
it's not worth selling some things unless you got em free to begin with

 

[emrr]

I would think postal money orders would be payable by the receiving countries postal service, just as stamps are honored. 

 

[okgb]

Apparently they're too easy to copy

 

[lassoharp]

According to USPS, as of 2008, a number of non-US country's MOs can now be accepted by USPS under provided conditions.

http://pe.usps.gov/text/imm/immc3_024.htm

A USPS service rep informed me that fake USPS and approved-for-USPS international MO's should be identifiable by USPS clerks before they are cashed, avoiding the after the fact surprise.  I don't think the 'certified' type fall into that category.

 

[desol]

You may be overreacting.

If he's going to pay you with a money order and the cash you want, you can easily take the money order to the bank when you receive it, have them check it, clear it, etc etc etc(tell them your story)...and only then would you ship the amp! If the bank can't properly check and clear a money order, we'll that becomes their problem after that..imo.

D.

 

[lassoharp]

The problem with most banks, at least the ones I've spoken with here locally, is that they make no up front guarantees for either checks or MOs.  Some tellers may know more than others but the answer I've gotten is that there's no way for them to know until it's processed.

If you make your suspicion known up front they may not file charges against you but you're still liable for processing fees.

All things considered I seriously doubt the transaction will work.  He emailed today saying he's buying a set of speakers instead . . . . with a story of how his neighbors suddenly decided to move to Florida and had an everything must go sale, amongst which were a set of Altec speakers he'd wanted. So who knows.

If the guy was attempting something he was apparently scoping audio forum classified ads for no response or expiring listings.   

 

[coniglius]

If the bank can't properly check and clear a money order, we'll that becomes their problem after that..imo.

Lemme know where you bank, 'cause that must be nice The banks can and will hold you responsible for any and all such charges and will take responsibility for nothing. There's dozens of scam stories online where people have lost money after a check, MO, or whatever had been declared "cleared" by their bank, only to find later that the funding was later rejected, then tried to sue the banks for negligence and routinely lose. It's clearly written in every account agreement that I've seen that you will be the one ultimately responsible in these cases, which is how such scams exist in the first place. If was the bank's money that these scammers were ultimately ending up with then I doubt many people would get away with it because  there's no way in hell banks going to let this keep happening to them.

 

[MartyMart]

Perhaps you don't have this in the US but in the UK we can pay to "express clear" a cheque
I think it costs around £15 or so, so only worth it for large amounts, they take the money from the "payee"
on the spot so if funds are not available, it bounces right away.

I had a few issues with "cheques" over the years and was told by my bank that it can "bounce" up to 6 weeks
later - AFTER being paid in a cleared, as the money is not physically "transferred" from bank to bank that quickly, it's
just "Promised" to be paid  !!
So even offering to be paid that way and waiting 5 working days for it to clear is a "no no" .... I've been stung believe me !

Check the small print in your banks working practices and see for yourself, or give 'em a call

MM.

 

[emrr]

According to USPS, as of 2008, a number of non-US country's MOs can now be accepted by USPS under provided conditions.

http://pe.usps.gov/text/imm/immc3_024.htm

A USPS service rep informed me that fake USPS and approved-for-USPS international MO's should be identifiable by USPS clerks before they are cashed, avoiding the after the fact surprise.  I don't think the 'certified' type fall into that category.

I have received the pink MO's from Japan, but never any of those other countries.  Must be a separate item to select when purchasing. 

 

[APEX JR.]

I've learned that my bank charges a fee for a Canadian Postal Money order even if it's
made out in US Funds. They told me that it is not an american bank and they will get
a conversion fee, $15.00 on any amount.

I set up a specical account with a $100.00 minimum balance and have TT bank transfers
to go into that account and then transfer to my main account for countrys like
Nigeria, Indonesia, Laos, Singapore, and other scam countrys.

I also thought I was being scamed by a customer in Singapore and it was a heathly order
I didn't want to lose so I thought up opening a new account and could only lose $100.00
This company turned out to be a good account.

Steve @ Apex Jr.