Sorensen Power Supply

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mwkeene

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 14, 2004
Messages
91
Location
Upstate New York
Hi,
I found an old Sorensen model 325 BB DC power supply in the junk room of a local hi-fi store. I bought it for 30 bucks, and although it doesnt work correctly right now, it has a nice case, two good VU meters on the front and a few nice transformers that can be salvaged. It's variable voltage from -125 to 325 DC volts, with a constant center-tap 6.3 volt AC out. I'm a little confused about the 6.3V AC out, as I thought tube heaters ran on DC. There are two VR150 (OD3) tubes inside that are no good, while everything else seems to be in great shape. There are some other tubes in there which I have no way of testing, so it could become a mildly expense task replacing all these tubes. So, that brings me to my question. Does anybody know anything about this power supply, is it any good? If so i'll replace the tubes and get it working again...if not Ill just use the chassis for another power supply project. Thanks guys.
-Mike
 
Just the easy answers for now:

> two good VU meters

Not VU meters.

> variable voltage from -125 to 325 DC volts

Surely two outputs: a "B" supply 0V to +325V, and a "C" supply -125V to 0V.

> I'm a little confused about the 6.3V AC out, as I thought tube heaters ran on DC.

Where did you hear that bumph? Oh, from the new kids too young to know how to twist AC heat wiring properly. Tube heaters eat AC perfectly well, just like the lamps in your home. Look in ANY Fender amp, or 98% of all the tube pro audio ever made. DC heat is for slobs. And even slobs can use AC heat on the build/repair bench.

> There are two VR150 (OD3) tubes inside that are no good

It is highly unlikely a OD3 would fail; two "duds" at once just isn't credible. Something else is wrong.

> other tubes in there which I have no way of testing

TESTING? Testing tubes is a last resort.

> is it any good?

Yes. NYDave would give you $35 sight unseen. Ethan should buy it-- repairing a classic bench-supply is a LOT cheaper and faster than building his own.

I gotta go home and pet the dog. Diagnostics later.
 
[quote author="PRR"]
Not VU meters.
[/quote]

Sorry, yeah too much "fun" last night and I can't think straight... A voltmeter and an ammeter, I dont know why that came out of my fingers. :oops:

[quote author="PRR"]
Surely two outputs: a "B" supply 0V to +325V, and a "C" supply -125V to 0V.
[/quote]

Yes, you are right. I took a misleading, and incorrect shortcut in that statement. And to be accurate, (yes i made another mistake) the C supply is -150V to 0V.

[quote author="PRR"]
Where did you hear that bumph? Oh, from the new kids too young to know how to twist AC heat wiring properly. Tube heaters eat AC perfectly well, just like the lamps in your home. Look in ANY Fender amp, or 98% of all the tube pro audio ever made. DC heat is for slobs. And even slobs can use AC heat on the build/repair bench.
[/quote]

We'll I didnt hear that from anyone, it's just that every schematic that *I* have looked at has had a filtered heater supply, so thats why I was confused. Maybe I need to start looking at other schematics.

[quote author="PRR"]
It is highly unlikely a OD3 would fail; two "duds" at once just isn't credible. Something else is wrong.
[/quote]

Well they both have loose parts rattling around inside, I figured they cant be in perfect working order...

Thanks.
-Mike
 
Grab a copy of NYDave's Heath IP32 manual. It won't be exact the same, but these boxes didn't vary a lot.

List the tube types you have. It will be clear which does what. It would be good to find the pin-out on each one.

Do you have all the tubes? (Good or bad, we don't care yet.)

Is there ANY sign of life? Check the line-fuse.

Do you get about 6VAC at the front panel 6VAC heater terminals? The heater may be a separate switch from the other voltages.

Rattle in a OD3 is odd: there are only two parts and they are both big. Dang-near impossible to bust them without busting the glass. Loose bits were not uncommon in low-price tubes... let's assume they may be OK.
 
Yes, there are signs of life. The heater supply seems to be working as I get 7V AC across the terminals. There is output from the B+ supply, but it is not correct. When the polarity switch is negative, the output ranges 5V from 790 to 795volts and the voltmeter shows no output. When the polarity switch is positive, the output ranges 5V from 775 to 780volts and the voltmeter pegs to 500V (thats the limit). The C- supply output ranges from 0 to -8V.

All the parts seem to be there.
Tubes:
-2 OD3
-3 6L6
-1 6SH7
-1 5Y3
-1 6SL7GT
-1 5Y4GY

Im checking out the Heath supply manual right now, and looking up the tube pinouts.
It looks like the 5Y3 and 5Y4GY are full wave rectifiers.
I'm guessing the 6L6s are used for regulation?
-Mike
 
Sheesh that's a high voltage to be getting through to the output! See what it does when loaded down a bit. It's almost as if the pass tube I assume it has was shorted, although w/o a schematic it's hard to say.

And it goes without saying---but I'll say it anyway: keep one hand in your pocket while working on this! ~800V through your chest is plenty enough to stop the heart in a way it may not recover from.

When I worked with image intensifier tubes at UCLA we had a big Sorenson. It provided as much as 30kV at ~10mA. Was that a beast. The pass tube was an ancient thing that looked like it belonged in a museum or a B-grade scifi flick---you had this big space between the plate and the grid in the middle of this bulbous bottle. The control electronics floated in this assembly of plexiglas. I think the whole thing was roughly like a hollow state version of the LM317.

One day working in the darkroom a prof. let his hand drift to where it contacted voltage and sent part of it through his head. He was never quite the same after that. OTOH I'm not sure if he was ever the same before that either ;-).
 
[quote author="bcarso"]Sheesh that's a high voltage to be getting through to the output! See what it does when loaded down a bit. It's almost as if the pass tube I assume it has was shorted, although w/o a schematic it's hard to say.[/quote]

I loaded the B+ output with a 1Meg resistor and got a 5volt drop in the output...

I'm trying to be methodical with this, so I'm starting to check the power and everything seems to be okay so far. All of the tubes, with the exception of the OD3s have between 5 and 7 volts across the heaters so that seems to be okay. There are a few things that seem strange to me though. I noticed there is only about 10 volts dropping across both of the OD3s and pins 4 and 6 are shorted together on the 5Y3. What should I be checking next? I'm trying to go from the bottom up here, but I also need to take it one step at a time because this is a potentially dangerous analysis, and I'm not the most knowledgeable tube person in the world...
Thanks.
-Mike
 
"pins 4 and 6 are shorted together on the 5Y3"

Probably not if you take it out of the socket and measure. Pins 4 and 6 are the two plates and would be tied together at d.c. by the winding resistance of the power transformer, which might look like a short depending on your ohmmeter scale. If they were shorted internally you'd have fried your power trafo by now.

Are there any obviously scorched resistors under the hood? I'm puzzled why your OD3's aren't firing and giving that gorgeous purple glow---it certainly isn't because there's no voltage anywhere to strike the discharge. Maybe something that they connect to is loading them down to begin with as well.

In normal operation OD3's should glow and have about 150V across. In testing them in isolation use a good-sized resistor from the source of the voltage---like gas discharges in general they will have a rather low impedance once they fire, and you need the R to limit that.

Delta V of 5V for loading of ~800uA---hmmm. Sounds like about the open-loop impedance of the guts before feedback is in operation. But the OD3's are not happening, which is where I would have thought the voltage reference was coming from, which would tend to have the opposite effect, that is low output voltage, were it not for the pass tube being challenged to hold off this many volts. Hmmmm.
 
[quote author="PRR"]Ethan should buy it-- repairing a classic bench-supply is a LOT cheaper and faster than building his own.[/quote] Awwww, the big guy thinks of me :grin:. I actually stopped by this yard sale on my way home last week. I usually never check out yard sales, but this guy had a bunch of antique radios and such so I thought he might have some goodies. I picked up a Heathkit IP32 for $40. Brought it home, opened it up (it smelled like death inside) and replaced the selenium rectifiers and lytics. Within the hour I had a fully functioning new toy! The volt meter was busted but using my DMM to measure the output is probably much more accurate. I might just build it into a new chassis, as this one does't look (or smell) that hot.
 
[quote author="bcarso"]
"pins 4 and 6 are shorted together on the 5Y3"

Probably not if you take it out of the socket and measure. Pins 4 and 6 are the two plates and would be tied together at d.c. by the winding resistance of the power transformer, which might look like a short depending on your ohmmeter scale. If they were shorted internally you'd have fried your power trafo by now.
[/quote]

No, I mean there is one wire visibly connected to both pin 4 and 6. So, no blown transformer, but seemingly incorrect wiring on this 5Y3.
-Mike
 
You're right, the 5Y3 is wired as a half wave rectifier (I had to look that up, thats pretty cool that the heater and the anode are the same thing). And yes, I have found at least one resistor gone bad at this point. Its a huge one...everything is carbon film, but this is the only resistor like this (1.25" with 3/8" diameter), should I be looking for a large power rating when I replace it? Also, There are few dry electrolytic caps in here that may have gone bad, but I wont know till ive tested them all individually. Should I just replace all the caps as a preventative measure, or is that a waste? This thing is really old, and I dont know how long dry electrolytics last... I feel like im making some headway with this thing, thanks for the help so far guys.
-Mike
 
Is there any proof the right tubes are in it? Ailing orphans sometimes suffer idiot repair attempts.

The tube line-up is about as expected:

-2 OD3 - references
-3 6L6 - pass device
-1 6SH7 - voltage amp
-1 5Y3 - low-current rectifier
-1 6SL7GT - ??? volt-amp or trivial rectifier
-1 5Y4GY - high-current rectifier

5Y3 is apparently wired half-wave because it is a 200mA tube only supplying ~20mA, a half-wave transformer winding is cheaper and smaller, and while it would work with just one plate connected, you get two per bottle so they use both.

I'm not sure everybody understands the function of this box.

> When the polarity switch is negative

It isn't a "polarity switch". The box is dual-output, but just one meter to check both outputs. Yes, the outputs are different polarities, but there are two very different outputs.

To mess with tubes, particularly radios, you need three batteries.

The "A" battery heats the filaments. 6V was popular and you have this, working.

The "B" battery sucks electrons off the filament or cathode and is several hundred volts positive of the heater/cathode. This has to supply all the power the radio needs for gain and output.

In some designs (and much experimental work) you need a trivial amount of current at a voltage negative of the cathodes to bias the grid(s). This is obviously the "C" battery.

The B and C "batteries" are connected like the right side of this sketch:

MK-Bench-1.gif


We actually used batteries for some work. While a battery's voltage can't be "varied", they are really stacks of 1.5V cells so any voltage can be gotten if you bring a few taps out of the stack. A 3V/4.5V/6V/7.5V/9V C-battery was a common item.

But batteries can be expensive.

If all radios used the same power, we would just use transformer, rectifier, and capacitor to deliver the standard voltage.

But a repair shop gets a 45V beach-radio one day, a 300V Zenith DeLuxe Console the next day.

A tapped transformer would work....

But transformers sag, and simple cap-filters hum/buzz. Sometimes we have to test at a specific or buzz-free voltage.

So we start with a too-high voltage and waste the excess. Along the way we can reduce the buzz.

So this bench supply must start with a big ~500VDC supply for the "B battery" output, and a smaller negative supply for the "C battery" function.

> the output ranges 5V from 790 to 795volts

Measured where? Which of the two outputs? (It would be real good to have a closeup picture of the binding-posts.)

Let's go back to the power transformer and the DC we get from it. The big 5Y4 rectifier feeds a big cap. Is the negative end of that cap connected (directly or through small resistance) to the black terminal of the 0-350V output? What is the voltage on that cap?

Now let's find the raw negative power. Big clue would be a filter capacitor(s) with the positive end connected to common or a black binding post (very possibly through the 1-5 pins of a gas-tube). Do you get ~300V across that cap?

I'd half-bet that the 5Y3 supplies the negative voltage. However the logical way is to put the 5Y3 in the line to common, and take negative DC from the other end of that transformer winding. But there are several ways to do it.

That 6SL7 is a puzzle. This could be a high-class ultra-stable supply using the twin-triode as a diff-amp, and the 6SH7 for extra gain. But for best performance, the 6L6 pass-tubes need a floating screen supply. But we are out of rectifiers (unless they use solid-state for this). Hmmm.... extra volt-amp, missing rectifier.... a 6SL7 could be diode-strapped as a dual rectifier, and its voltage and current ratings are just about right for feeding several 6L6 screens. It seems silly not to use one of the dual-diodes, but most are too small or much too big. And 6SL7 was a VERY popular tube, always in-stock at competitive prices.
 
[quote author="PRR"]Is there any proof the right tubes are in it? Ailing orphans sometimes suffer idiot repair attempts.[/quote]

Yes, next to each socket is a punched in designation (in the sheet metal) for what each tube should be. When I first took all the tubes out to clean it, I checked them.


[quote author="PRR"]
> When the polarity switch is negative

It isn't a "polarity switch". The box is dual-output, but just one meter to check both outputs. Yes, the outputs are different polarities, but there are two very different outputs.
[/quote]

Okay, that makes sense. There is only one meter, the placement of the switch just made me think for some reason that the B supply could either be positive or negative. But it makes more sense that we would have a switch for the meter, not for the outputs... I can jump to some amazing conclusions sometimes...

[quote author="PRR"]
> the output ranges 5V from 790 to 795volts
Measured where? Which of the two outputs? (It would be real good to have a closeup picture of the binding-posts.) [/quote]

This is the output of the B+ supply. I'll get that picture up here as soon as I can...

[quote author="PRR"]That 6SL7 is a puzzle. This could be a high-class ultra-stable supply using the twin-triode as a diff-amp, and the 6SH7 for extra gain. But for best performance, the 6L6 pass-tubes need a floating screen supply. But we are out of rectifiers (unless they use solid-state for this). Hmmm.... extra volt-amp, missing rectifier.... a 6SL7 could be diode-strapped as a dual rectifier, and its voltage and current ratings are just about right for feeding several 6L6 screens. It seems silly not to use one of the dual-diodes, but most are too small or much too big. And 6SL7 was a VERY popular tube, always in-stock at competitive prices.[/quote]

I checked out the wiring on the 6SL7 and it looks like the grid of one of the triodes is connected to the "ground shield" for the tube socket, while the cathode of that tube is connected to the anode of the other triode. Doesn't seem like a differential pair to me... I guess the tube with the "grounded" grid could be used as a constant current source, no?

I'm not done responding to this, but this is all I have time for right now...
Thanks.
-Mike
 
"I checked out the wiring on the 6SL7 and it looks like the grid of one of the triodes is connected to the "ground shield" for the tube socket, while the cathode of that tube is connected to the anode of the other triode."

Sounds like a cascode stage. Pretty fancy way to get higher gain---but if it is also supppsed to tolerate a higher plate voltage on the second tube there could be some rationale. Only so much voltage differential tolerable between the cathodes, though, to avoid heater-cathode breakdown.

The plot thickens.

Also of possible import: the tube reg on pg. 1221 of Langford-Smith 4th Ed. uses an SL7 with the second section grid connected directly to the input section's plate. No d.c. values within the circuit are shown.

Are you quite sure you have the pinouts and connections correct?
 
I agree it sounds cascody.

> the tube reg on pg. 1221 of Langford-Smith 4th Ed.

RDH4-33-14.gif


You can cascade too. Note that huge amounts of power are going into dividers to set the tube cathodes at various voltages.

However, once you commit to a negative ("C-battery") supply, it gets a lot simpler to hang the gas tube "underground", fed from the negative rail. That becomes essential if you make pretense of adjusting B+ to near zero volts. So I don't think this is how Sorensen did it.
 
[quote author="bcarso"]
Are you quite sure you have the pinouts and connections correct?[/quote]

no... Sorry guys, I was looking at the 6SH7 tube, not the 6SL7 tube...:oops:
I was hoping to not have to cut all these nice wire ties off...but I just cant do this blindly with a voltmeter anymore. I'm getting so many false shorts across tranfomers that its not worth it. I'm gonna actually follow these wires by hand. Well, at least I got a free lesson on cascodes out of the confusion!

The 6SL7 has the two cathodes from the triodes (pins 3 and 6) connected together...

Since I've got this thing apart, I decided to change out the big 80uF 450v caps (they aren't registering more than 20nF on my multimeter). I bought some new 100uF 450v electrolytics today, and it seems weird putting in caps that are about 1/6th the size...

-Mike
 
Okay, I've been testing the voltage across the 5Y4 rectifier, and I get 1400 volts AC...this is right off the transformer :shock:
This is starting to scare me...
 
Have you independently checked your a.c. voltmeter with other sources?

That of course (1400V) is from one side to the other of a center-tapped winding, so only 700V applied to each plate of the rectifier tube. Not too ridiculous, although overall your voltages have seemed high for what the properly functioning supply is supposed to produce as a regulated d.c. output.

Sure would help to have a schematic.
 
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