stereo imaging issues with monitors too close together

[intellijel]

I am well ware of the need to keep monitors positioned so that ones listening position forms an equilateral triangle with them.

Due to certain physical constraints of my setup I can only achieve this ideal if my monitors are spaced 3ft apart.

AFAIK this is ok but ideally they should be about 4-5ft apart (which would also push back my listening position)

Is the 3ft width a real problem? Does this affect my ability to properly tune the stereo imaging?

I noticed when speakers were farther apart it was a lot easier to place elements in the stereo mix since there was such a distinct mono center. Now it feels like I need to work harder to create the separations and width.

Advice appreciated!

 

[bcarso]

There are various schemes for synthetic speaker spreading. Most of them do some violence to the frequency response, and are mostly "few-user" systems in that you lose imaging accuracy in a hurry as you move off-axis.

But if it's all you can do, you might find one that would be satisfactory.

Harman licensed Cooper-Bauck's patented* scheme and dubbed it VMAx. Some versions process five channels of surround and synthesize the appropriate signals for two speakers based on the subtended angles with the listener. They process exclusively in the frequency domain, and for some listeners the effect on transients is intolerable. The system works quite well for me when the two speakers are in a relatively anechoic environment, and gets unpredictable when there are typical room reflections.

A vastly simpler matrix (or algorithm if you like) was devised by John Norris to accomplish something similar. In a remarkable but not uncommon display of penny-wise/pound-foolish stupidity, Harman (for whom John worked at the time of filing) elected not to respond to some USPTO office action and abandoned the patent. Then they turned about and let me have one** (wholly owned by Harman of course) that was derivative of Norris, pertaining to smoothly transitioning from Norris to stereo :roll:


* the patent failed to note prior art by Mouri, which if anyone wanted to bother would probably provide the basis of an invalidation suit. But why bother...

**US 6,996,239

 

[PRR]

Remember, unless your market is mature audiophiles, that 97% of your audience hears no image at all. Either off-center, or iPod ping-pong. The bass and the hook sell the song. Even I don't often listen "for the image".

> VMAx. ...for some listeners the effect on transients is intolerable. The system works quite well for me when the two speakers are in a relatively anechoic environment, and gets unpredictable....

For mix-monitoring, simple and predictable trumps all.

> my monitors are spaced 3ft apart.

I got fantastic imaging from two Minimus speakers 33" apart at arm length.

I moved to larger KEF. They are less colored, but at 5 feet apart I can not get "an image" unless I stand up and take two steps back. Which puts me in the mid-field of a nasty (hard rectangular) room. Fortunately I don't mix for image (recordings are stereo and I just fix gross flaws).

I propose a criteria. The driver which carries 1KHz-5KHz should be "small" from the listening position, where "small" is 1/10th the distance to the ear. The Minimus fit this criteria. The KEFs (which get to 3KHz in a 8" cone) don't until I move back 7 feet.

Small drivers make less clean acoustic power (unless you dump the bass to another driver). However if you work within 4 feet in a typical residential room, you need less acoustic power for the same level at the ear. The Minimus were fine for 1 to 5 people (not all got "image" but all near listeners got level).

 

[Gold]

Have you tried just spacing them further apart without moving the listening position? Experiment with the angle of the cabinets too. You can probably find smething that works.

 

[emrr]

I have one friend who turns out near-mono mixes all the time. I see his pans no further out than 11 or 1 o'clock. His speakers are too far out, and he's too close to them. So watch out for that, too.

 

[Gold]

[quote author="emrr"] So watch out for that, too.[/quote]

Yes, watch out for everything. I know my speakers sound best when I'm sitting a little closer than an equilateral triangle and having the drivers pointing straight out-off axis.

Adjust for least suck.

 

[Silvas]

I like different monitor settings for the 3 rooms i work in....

For tracking on the Sony room, i like the monitors to be like 2 -2.5 ft apart (Genelec 1030)

For Tracking on the Neve room, i like the Yamaha NS40 to be somewhat equidistant in the equilateral triangle fashion...

In my mixing room, i have both Genelecs and ns10, the genelecs are in equilateral triangle fashion but i love the ns10's really really close to my ears when i'm mixing, maybe 2 feet max. and also 2 feet apart from each other...

Never had problems with the stereo image, what i record in any studio came out good in the mixing room...but my conclusion is, whatever works for you, as i love all the setups i mentioned, i'm not picky with the monitoring exept when i mix.

BUT

Yeah, if you have your monitors very close to each other you will probably start to hard pan things to compensate.

I agree with PRR...almost no one hears image these days...

 

[intellijel]

Thanks for all the responses!

My room is very small (8.5x11), the monitors I am using are Adam A7's

and my listening position with the current configuration is at about %38 of the room length.

Unfortunately the backs of the monitors are about 8" from a glass window but since they are front ported I hope the bass boost effect of being close to a "wall" is not as pronounced.

My only other concern is that they are on a desk surface instead of on speaker stands. I own speaker stands but they simply will not fit into this current situation.

The monitors are angled up towards my ears (based on the tweaters) using Auralex mopads.

cheers,
Danjel

 

[amorris]

Please remember, that if you are mixng for the outside world, that it doesnt matter what it sounds like in your room, only what it sounds like everywhere else. so just figure out your room, what ever it is, and do work. you will have to have good outside "typical" environments to listen, just dont forget that that is your goal is outside your room.

 

[intellijel]

Obviously my goal is to control and adjust my environment as much as possible so that the mixes I do here DO translate properly to the outside world. I am also in the process of installing as much acoustic treatment as I can afford to do right now: bass traps in each corner, first reflection absorbers etc.)

I was just curious if this issue of monitor width was something extremely important to consider but the feedback I am getting so far seems to indicate that it is not a huge deal and definitely workable.

cheers,
Danjel

 

[vertiges]

[quote author="intellijel"]

Unfortunately the backs of the monitors are about 8" from a glass window but since they are front ported I hope the bass boost effect of being close to a "wall" is not as pronounced.
[/quote]

Hi,

Under 350 Hz event if there are front ported, your speakers becomes omnidirectional. The 38 % are not an absolute rule. Sometimes moving the speakers by one feet in the horyzontal plan or the vertical plan can mage a huge difference in the behaviour of the modes of the room.

I've got too a pair of A7. They should be about 3,5 feet apart. No problem at all with the stereo image. The monitors are angled up towards about 5-6 inches from my head. (I hope I'm clear). It's less critical if you mix music. If you mix films, all the sound will be transposed on a big screen, the error of pannings will be obvious. I've got this problem when mixing/sound designing film) but it more due at the fact my screen is between my speakers. When a event is totally in the left in the picture I'm tempted to place the sound attached to this event not totally in my left speakers (50 degrees instead of 60) and it should do.

Like Paul, I too find my speakers sound better when I'm sitting a little closer than an equilateral triangle. But I'm move a lot when I mix. I've different spot in my room I know well... :wink:

The acoustic treatment is very important in the small rooms. You can DIY yourself...

eD

 

[vertiges]

[quote author="Silvas"]IYeah, if you have your monitors very close to each other you will probably start to hard pan things to compensate. [/quote]

Yes, you've got less resolution. (But actually, with the ADAM as there are very precise that's OK. )

[quote author="Silvas"]
I agree with PRR...almost no one hears image these days...[/quote]

Yes, that's right...

The place where I listen music the more, I mean for fun, is my car... not a good place for stereo. I'm sad when the mixer put the HH on the right... Oh well... :green:

eD

 

[Silvas]

[quote author="vertiges"]The place where I listen music the more, I mean for fun, is my car... not a good place for stereo. I'm sad when the mixer put the HH on the right... Oh well... :green:

eD[/quote]


I pan the hats to the extreme left !

i'm used to sit at the drumset (i was a drummer when i was younger)

 

[vertiges]

[quote author="Silvas"]I pan the hats to the extreme left !

i'm used to sit at the drumset (i was a drummer when i was younger)[/quote]

Me too, I prefer to place the HH in the left speakers. But sometimes, the band prefer to have "the public view" placement : HH on the right side and hi tom to the floor tom : right to left. I've never meet a dreamer who wanted the "public view" by the way. And what about the left handed drummers... I don't know any... :green: But It's getting a little O.T. :wink:

eD)))

 

[MartyMart]

I went to a friends studio last night and listened to some mix's I did on his
Adam A7's , I thought that they sounded VERY good and it was an accurate
impression of what I had done.
He had them a little close together IMO, just under 4 foot apart.
I recommended that he get then further apart and also some good stands
or those special mats that get used these days.
I was very impressed with those monitors though !

MM.

 

[vertiges]

Yes, the A7 are very good speakers for small rooms... Amazing tweeters !!! :thumb:

According to me, the weak part in these boxes is their amplification. In a heavily acousticaly treated (like mine) I start to get distortion when I listen at about 85-90 dB.

eD