Studer A80 MK1 16 track monitoring nightmare

[emtee]

Anyone have any experience with the above?

I'm trying to find a way to get this darn machine to be usable in a tracking situation and having a bit of a nightmare :sad:

The machine has 2 sets of outputs on male(!) xlrs, one for sync & one for repro.

If I connect the repro outs to the monitor inputs on the console, I obviously get something of a delay on the monitored audio as the output is taken from the repro head - no good.

If I connect the Sync outs to the monitor inputs on the console, I can monitor the record enabled tracks but only while the tape is actually rolling. When playing back the tape I get nothing - again no good.

In either situation, if I change the mode switch to 'sync' I get nothing from either output. If I change the meter switch to 'sync' I see no level.

The plan is to track on this machine and then transfer to DAW so at a pinch I could possibly put up with repatching outputs each time I need to transfer but I still get no monitoring until I roll tape. I obviously can't do any overdubbing to tape either.

I tried the mod detailed here - http://recordist.com/studer/A80_VU_Simplified_Audio_alignment.pdf
which seems to route the input to the sync output permanently regardless of the position of the mode switch - still means no overdubbing and having to repatch to review a take etc.

I've downloaded all the tech info from Studer's FTP but can't find any more clues there either. I can't get my head round why the machine would be set up in such an unusable configuration to begin with, maybe it has been modified at some point in its 30 year life

:?

 

[gyraf]

Dosen't the machine have a sel-sync mode - i.e. input monitoring of armed tracks in stop and rec mode, and playback of unarmed tracks? Or is this not what you're looking for?

Jakob E.

 

[emtee]

Nope, it has a rotary 'mode' switch on each channel that selects remote, sync, repro & ready. The only manual I can find is for the MK2, that says that sync mode should operate as you suggest but I get no output at all in sync mode.

 

[gyraf]

Maybe it's meant to be a function of the remote control?

 

[guy_4]

Hello,

I PM'ed you.
Guy

 

[emtee]

[quote author="guy_4"]Hello,

I PM'ed you.
Guy[/quote]

:sad: didn't get a PM

 

[sodderboy]

That mod should work if-
you have the 1.081.815 card
you are switched to remote
you are using the repro out
your track is in ready

The dummy plugs should be simulating a remote set to "SYNC" and "READY". What effect it has when the machine is set to REPRO I do not know.

Double-check all of your work following the directions exactly. If there is a PDF of the remote, you can verify that the mod is doing what I described. Following the Studer section, block, element wiring is like getting directions in Yorkshire, but with luck you get there.
Mike

 

[emtee]

[quote author="sodderboy"]That mod should work if-
you have the 1.081.815 card
you are switched to remote
you are using the repro out
your track is in ready
[/quote]

Unfortunately I don't have those cards. :sad:

The only workaround I've found is to use the Jack outs (by the VU meters) then at least I can switch monitoring between input and repro. Not ideal and I can't do any overdubs to tape, but we can get the meat & taties of the tracks down on tape and then bounce to DAW via the repro outputs.

 

[guy_4]

Hello Emtee,
Sorry you did not get my PM, I did not understand why :?:
To make it short, I told you that adding " monitoring" in the title of your thread was not necessary.
You can just type " Studer A80 MK1 16 tracks : a nightmare "
There were few MK1's multitracks built, Studer quickly switched to the MKII...it was a nightmare from the start.
This machine has never been designed to do what you need.
Outside of your " monitoring " problem, did you check the speed stability from start to end of a tape reel ? and how about W&F ?
If they are were not replaced, the audio amps are the black A101's. Bad.
Also, you cannot overdub properly, because of the distance between the erase and record/sync head. makes a " hole " when punching.
My advice would be to stay away from a A80 16 MK1.
I am serious, I fixed tape recorders for decades, and most of them were Studer's.
Guy

 

[Aref]

Hey,
I'm considering  to get a 1" 8track A80 UV MK1 and your post was so thrilling...
I also have seen people say it's best among others!
"The A80VU MKONE HAS THE BEST SOUND DUE TO BALANCED PLAY HEAD AND NO IC,S IN THE SIGNAL PATH AND FIXED EQ COMPONENTS.NO CHIP LEG CORROSION
AND NO EQ ALUMINIUM PIN CORROSION TO EFFECT SIGNAL.IT ALSO HAS A FLUTTER ROLLER WITH BEARINGS WHICH MKTWO QUARTER INCH DOES NOT HAVE.
MY EARLY MKONE WAS MADE AT WETTINGTON THE OLD EMT FACTORY STUDER PURCHASED WHEN EMT MOVED TO LARGER BUILDING. "

This guy seems to find a way for the monitoring issue. I wish he could give more info about that....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lAhdtTdBUSo

Please add some info about pro/cons of MK1 if you can...
Thanks

 

[gridcurrent]

like guy_4 said, a nightmare.
input monitoring apparently can be fixed.
not so sure about the speed variation at the end of a reel.

 

[guy_4]

Hello Aref,

You mention this :
"The A80VU MKONE HAS THE BEST SOUND DUE TO BALANCED PLAY HEAD AND NO IC,S IN THE SIGNAL PATH AND FIXED EQ COMPONENTS.NO CHIP LEG CORROSION
AND NO EQ ALUMINIUM PIN CORROSION TO EFFECT SIGNAL.IT ALSO HAS A FLUTTER ROLLER WITH BEARINGS WHICH MKTWO QUARTER INCH DOES NOT HAVE.
MY EARLY MKONE WAS MADE AT WETTINGTON THE OLD EMT FACTORY STUDER PURCHASED WHEN EMT MOVED TO LARGER BUILDING. "
Do you know who posted it,  and his experience with a Studer A80 ?
Does it come from G.......Z  ?    it reminds me of something...
This is bullshit . Pure bullshit.  Sorry.
AFAIK at the time of manufacturing the MKI, there was one and only one Studer factory, in Zollikon, near Zurich, Swiss.
Where I went for training courses when I was working for Studer International.
I have never heard of a Studer factory based in Wettington ( ? ) . Please tell me if I was wrong.
But this is nothing compared to the real subject.

AND NO IC,S IN THE SIGNAL PATH
True, if you considered a discrete opamp with four transistors enclosed in some epoxy not being an IC.
The first generation ( black )  A101 Studer opamps turned famous for blowing one after one, the second generation ( blue ) were a bit better but still blew, and it needed the third generation ( discrete with no enclosure ) to get a reliable solution.
I have replaced hundreds ( thousands ? ) of blown A101's along the years...

This guy seems to find a way for the monitoring issue. I wish he could give more info about that....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lAhdtTdBUSo

This is a recent post on YouTube, and this guy, Grega, has nicely modded his MK1 for Input Monitoring in the last months.
It works well ! 
I spoke with him several times, and he is a brillant engineer.

But all of this do not change what I was writing in my previous post,  about the time delay caused by the wrong headlock design, and the difficulty to make a A80 MKI run at a constant and stabilized speed from start to end of a reel, with limited W&F.
Also, are you aware of the difficulties and cost to actually get new spares parts  for a Studer A80 MKI  ?
Try to find a kit of 2" dashpots...or the pots for tape tension sensors... and if you are ( very ) lucky be prepared for a shock when you'll know the price...  :'(
I don't know the condition of your machine, but before going further, I would suggest you to first contact Audiohouse to get a price list of their spares parts in stock.

This is only my words and opinion, but based on my experience of many years at fixing tape recorders, and ninety percent of them were Studer's.

Best,
Guy

 

[perkmandlc]

Hi Guy, Aref, everyone,

Not here to argue, or dispute about opinions...
Though, I have to say, MK1 is the best sounding of the bunch.  Of course it has its quirks and peculiarities, but hey, It's a 40+ year old beast now but when brought to specs, really worth it!
Much of the quirks can be remedied, solved and upgraded. With the work we have done, we can now help with many "drop in" replacements and solutions.

BTW
The way we use a multitrack tape machine today has changed  tremendously since the old days when it was the only way you could do a multitrack recording therefore, gap on punch out really isn't a deal braker.
We're in it for the sound not handling romance.

We have available solutions for:

- auto input monitor module (automatically toggles input rec and sync signal to repro out when in rec - ie. what you need to do overdubs / this also makes calibration easier)
- punch out module (normal punch out with play as found on later machines)
- speed stability module (much improved speed stability through the whole reel)
- record relay (drop in replacement for the record relays which are quite certainly not to the specs anymore and cause all sorts hidden problems. Ask for more information)

- bearings (correct precision bearings)
- BOM for a complete recap (or can also supply all the capacitors)

Contact me for more information.

Cheers!

Grega

 

[abbey road d enfer]

Just to bring a comment: direct/sync switching was supposed to be done in the mixer. The big Neve mixer at Barclay studios had a dual-16 track monitoring section where the channels could be armed and switched under the command of the record button. That was the Swiss engineers' take on multitrack monitoring at the time...You could hear when the machine went into record, with all these relays.

 

[remsouille]

Hi Guy, Aref, everyone,

Not here to argue, or dispute about opinions...
Though, I have to say, MK1 is the best sounding of the bunch.  Of course it has its quirks and peculiarities, but hey, It's a 40+ year old beast now but when brought to specs, really worth it!
Much of the quirks can be remedied, solved and upgraded. With the work we have done, we can now help with many "drop in" replacements and solutions.

BTW
The way we use a multitrack tape machine today has changed  tremendously since the old days when it was the only way you could do a multitrack recording therefore, gap on punch out really isn't a deal braker.
We're in it for the sound not handling romance.

We have available solutions for:

- auto input monitor module (automatically toggles input rec and sync signal to repro out when in rec - ie. what you need to do overdubs / this also makes calibration easier)
- punch out module (normal punch out with play as found on later machines)
- speed stability module (much improved speed stability through the whole reel)
- record relay (drop in replacement for the record relays which are quite certainly not to the specs anymore and cause all sorts hidden problems. Ask for more information)

- bearings (correct precision bearings)
- BOM for a complete recap (or can also supply all the capacitors)

Contact me for more information.

Cheers!

Grega

I wanted to let everyone know that I installed grega's mods on my 8 track MKI. If anyone out there has a MKI, do yourself a favor. Get these mods. They're worth every penny.