Studio design help

[andYz00m]

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Once again, the more things change, the more they stay the same.

Sidebar - As an ersatz musician, I am OK with the lovely blue refrigerator (a necessary piece of kit.) But, I am not quite sure about what appears to be a doggy bed on the door. Of course, you should always eschew appearance and go with what works best - function over form, ya know !

(Just spitballing, old man ... nothing serious here ... except the bit about the fridge. I am enjoying looking over your shoulder on this project. ) . James/K8JHR

Ha! The fridge is indeed cool. The terrible door panel is a remnant of an old setup that will most certainly be replaced!

Gunna try some panels in the corners around the speaker placement that is making sense to see if taming the SBIR is a relatively simple thing, and then do some more listening from there.

 

[andYz00m]

Alright, more testing done this evening. Feeling like I found the right spot for listening. Another thing that was messing up was the speaker height. I had them way too high, Im a tall guy but they were not in the correct height.

I did some tests with panels hastily placed along the wall next to the speakers to help with the SBIR and it did help quite a bit.

Im considering just building floor to ceiling panels of 6" thick mineral wool (we have a shitload as were building a live room right now as well) in the corner to the side of each speaker. I also think I need to modify my super cool desk as well now... god damnit.

 

[andYz00m]

Got the new desk mostly built, needs some trim. Still dialing in the huge suck out between 100-200. The treatment on the side wall helps a bit but not a ton and depending on where I move the speakers, the major offending frequency and total size of the suckout changes. I found a position that is pretty good across the board but there is still that dip at 100 hz. Makes snare drums sound a bit anemic.

I believe this is caused by SBIR which means I cant eq it, but using the FreqDist tool, the speakers this close to the already massively treated back wall should be producing SBIR of ~500Hz. Could the huge suck out be caused by the floor/ceiling SBIR? This could make sense as the speakers are 36" off the ground which would correlate to the 100Hz...

I feel like I get closer to finding a good solution and then I get further away... haha. More testing is in order...

 

[kags]

Got the new desk mostly built, needs some trim. Still dialing in the huge suck out between 100-200. The treatment on the side wall helps a bit but not a ton and depending on where I move the speakers, the major offending frequency and total size of the suckout changes. I found a position that is pretty good across the board but there is still that dip at 100 hz. Makes snare drums sound a bit anemic.

I believe this is caused by SBIR which means I cant eq it, but using the FreqDist tool, the speakers this close to the already massively treated back wall should be producing SBIR of ~500Hz. Could the huge suck out be caused by the floor/ceiling SBIR? This could make sense as the speakers are 36" off the ground which would correlate to the 100Hz...

I feel like I get closer to finding a good solution and then I get further away... haha. More testing is in order...

View attachment 101961

You don’t have an SBIR problem at 500 Hz as that would be taken care of by even a thin broadband absorber. Does the 500 or 100 hz problem go away when you sit or stand or move forward and back? That will give a clue as to whether the problems are modal, interference or something else.

Also, have you looked at ETC graph for early reflections?

Remember that decay time will probably be more of an issue that drew response. You can never totally remove room mode influence on freq response, but you can really control decay time and first reflections.

Nice desk!

 

[andYz00m]

You don’t have an SBIR problem at 500 Hz as that would be taken care of by even a thin broadband absorber. Does the 500 or 100 hz problem go away when you sit or stand or move forward and back? That will give a clue as to whether the problems are modal, interference or something else.

Also, have you looked at ETC graph for early reflections?

Remember that decay time will probably be more of an issue that drew response. You can never totally remove room mode influence on freq response, but you can really control decay time and first reflections.

Nice desk!

I’ll check out the early reflections.

The 100-200 suck out doesn’t really change with moving around. It does to a degree but not significantly.

 

[andYz00m]

I’ll check out the early reflections.

The 100-200 suck out doesn’t really change with moving around. It does to a degree but not significantly.

I just ordered new monitors, tried a bunch of different pairs we had in the studio and the KRKs are doing weird things compared to a bit smaller monitors.

I was able to get some really good results with other smaller monitors. I do mostly rock, jazz and guitar music so sub 30hz is not as critical as it would be for EMD or other styles.

I’m also building a couple resonator traps tuned to 129Hz which seems to be consistently a problem in this room. 6” deep with 1/8” plywood.

That with some more 6” rock wool traps mounted properly and I think we’re gunna be good. The new monitors (Neumann KH 150 with the MA1 system) combined with my little Equator D5s are gunna be a good combo.

 

[MicMaven]

I’ll check out the early reflections.

The 100-200 suck out doesn’t really change with moving around. It does to a degree but not significantly.

Um ... er ... ahem ... Novice Question No. 29873

Would it matter if you populated the desk with equipment? Logic, but perhaps not experience, suggests populating the desk, and also populating the room with people, large equipment (amps, speaker cabs, pianos, guitars and cases, and etc.) and so forth would have a noticeable (significant?) impact on what you are trying to do. Or, am I off base? James

 

[kags]

Be aware there will be variation in the center freq of your traps- maybe as much as 10 or 15 Hz, which is significant for tuned narrow-band traps. Be sure to put insulation in the traps to widen the Q, but it shouldn’t touch the front panel. I recommend building traps for “bracketing frequencies,” that is if your problem is 80 Hz tune you should build 70, 80, and 90 Hz traps.

125 will probably be taken care of by your broadband velocity absorbers- which at 6 or 8 inches really go down to 80 or even lower in many cases.

Really good work so far!

Also- you can figure out a lot by playing just the frequency (sine wave) you feel has a dip (100 to 200 from your description) and walk around the room, including putting your ears close to ground and/or ceiling. The high pressure areas can tell you where/if there is a strong axial problem. That problem has to solved by treating a boundary where that pressure exists. The pressure will always be highest a boundary, so a modal frequency will definitely be noticeable near a boundary that supports that mode.

 

[andYz00m]

Be aware there will be variation in the center freq of your traps- maybe as much as 10 or 15 Hz, which is significant for tuned narrow-band traps. Be sure to put insulation in the traps to widen the Q, but it shouldn’t touch the front panel. I recommend building traps for “bracketing frequencies,” that is if your problem is 80 Hz tune you should build 70, 80, and 90 Hz traps.

125 will probably be taken care of by your broadband velocity absorbers- which at 6 or 8 inches really go down to 80 or even lower in many cases.

Really good work so far!

Also- you can figure out a lot by playing just the frequency (sine wave) you feel has a dip (100 to 200 from your description) and walk around the room, including putting your ears close to ground and/or ceiling. The high pressure areas can tell you where/if there is a strong axial problem. That problem has to solved by treating a boundary where that pressure exists. The pressure will always be highest a boundary, so a modal frequency will definitely be noticeable near a boundary that supports that mode.

Great advice! This is what made me realize this 125Hz problem is kinda everywhere in this room in a lot of different configurations. I was just sweeping through the frequencies while I had a friend move the speaker around (as well as me moving around) and its quite pervasive.

I did not try moving up and down though. I think this 125Hz problem is likely floor/ceiling related, even thought the entire ceiling is treated with enough material that it should be effective at 125 Hz.

Anyway, Im getting closer!

 

[andYz00m]

Here's the Impulse graph from the latest I took.



Here's the SPL to go with this take. This is with a smaller monitor.

 

[andYz00m]

Studio update, I ended up deciding to rip out that stupid corner room. It was useless, causing issues, looked dumb and it needed to go. I should have taken it out at the beginning (which I think I already knew in the beginning of this thread).

I knew that if I didn't rip it out and create a proper symmetrical space, I would never be satisfied.

I demoed everything and will have framing, drywall and insulation done this weekend. There is a crazy storm here in CA this week!

 

[andYz00m]

Got the framing and half of the drywall done this afternoon. Will finish the rest tomorrow. Then it’s massive ceiling insulation and treatment time!

 

[FIX]

This can help eliminating standing waves without reducing the room a lot.

 

[andYz00m]

Nice! That’s a super cool idea.

 

[andYz00m]

This can help eliminating standing waves without reducing the room a lot.

Progress report. There definitely is an extreme flutter echo now that there are two opposing perpendicular 10’ walls.

Im considering doing the technique Paul suggested (huge fan of your designs BTW) as I guess I could mount traps on the plywood if needed.

I’m going to try some basic broadband absorption first and see where I’m at. I’m also wanting to have flat walls to mount furniture etc.

We’ll see!!

 

[ruairioflaherty]

This can help eliminating standing waves without reducing the room a lot.

No. This can reduce flutter echo, and is useful in live rooms. In control rooms we typically want to absorb that MF and HF energy with shallower mineral wool.

The angled / splayed walls no effect at low frequency where standing waves are an issue.

 

[ruairioflaherty]

To clarify the wavelengths at LF are so long that the difference afforded by the splayed walls is meaningless, it will resonate.

 

[kags]

I wouldn’t worry too much about the flutter echo yet, since there is no treatment on those walls yet. Any broadband absorbers will kill the flutter, but the application those treatments should be optimized to treat any lower frequency issues you need to tackle.

At the risk of over-generalizing, you will likely want something like 10 square feet of wall or corner-mounted absorbers (at whatever depth is appropriate- like 4” to 8”) for every square meter of floor space. That will surely take care of most of your problems above the lowest modal issues, including flutter echo.

Since your floor is hard, you will still have a “natural” sounding room that won’t feel over-damped.

If you only treat the flutter echo with thin absorbers, you will create uneven decay times at high-vs-mid-vs-low freq and the room will be confusing to work in.

 

[andYz00m]

More progress today. Making a bunch more absorbers.

I wouldn’t worry too much about the flutter echo yet, since there is no treatment on those walls yet. Any broadband absorbers will kill the flutter, but the application those treatments should be optimized to treat any lower frequency issues you need to tackle.

At the risk of over-generalizing, you will likely want something like 10 square feet of wall or corner-mounted absorbers (at whatever depth is appropriate- like 4” to 8”) for every square meter of floor space. That will surely take care of most of your problems above the lowest modal issues, including flutter echo.

Since your floor is hard, you will still have a “natural” sounding room that won’t feel over-damped.

If you only treat the flutter echo with thin absorbers, you will create uneven decay times at high-vs-mid-vs-low freq and the room will be confusing to work in.

Agree and understand. I have about 35 sqm of floor space. That means 350 sqft of treatment.

The entire front wall is 6” deep safensound (160 sqft) and there is a large bass trap in the back corner (80 sqft). So I’m thinking I’ll need about (10) 2x4’ 6” deep absorber panels. I have made about 8 already.

Gunna try that first and see where I’m at. I’m currently waiting for fabric and the sub to go with the new Neumanns (which are really incredible monitors btw!)

I did some basic REW simulations and adding the sub in there makes things so much easier for ergonomic nearfield placement.

 

[andYz00m]

BOYS. ITS NIGHT AND DAY BETTER.

Been sitting here listening with my mouth wide open.

I can hear everything, and I havent added the sub or any treatement... hahaha!!!

So happy I did this....