The Financials of Detaining Immigrants

[Bo Deadly]

I know the numbers for the tents at Tornillo are ~$700 per child per day. Each tent holds 20 kids and 2 adults. It's so hot that each tent requires a separate 4 ton air conditioner. Right now they only have ~450 kids there but I just heard something a little nuts (that I will have to assume is hyperbole for the moment) which is that the numbers could expand to 4000 at Tornillo (we did apprehended ~300K last year but those numbers have declined a quite a bit over the years) and could cost as much as $2000 per child per day (Sen. Blumenthal on MSNBC). JAG officers are being diverted to do immigration cases and apparently they now need to hire some 5000 extra judges to actually process people for deportation.

 

[Tubetec]

700$ a day to live in a concentration camp in the desert sounds crazy,
Looks like the entire bill for dealing with the situation ,would feed ,house and cloth the people coming in .Surely a better approach would be to put resources into tackling problems at source in central/south American countries where the people are coming from ,or is the whole 'wall' approach just being used to lift the fortunes of the people who live on the USA's southern border instead, 'making work for yourself' is the phrase that springs to mind , but I guess thats the nature of the US's relationship with its southern neighbours forever , sending guns down and recieving payment back in drugs and enslaved people coming over the border  , looks like it all was part of the 'engineering solution' from the outset.

 

[hodad]

Hey, it's a win-win:  Trump gets to be horrible to brown people, and the private prison companies get stinking rich.  Who cares if a bunch of major drug trafficking cases get mucked up due to diverted resources?  Being mean to brown people plays great with the racist base; nobody's going to notice if a few more tons of heroin slip across the border.  Plus, more country hick smackheads means even more beds filled in the private prisons.  What's not to like about that?

 

[JohnRoberts]

That is only the obvious direct cost. There are indirect costs to the economy but this is not just about cost.  We are a country of laws, and there are laws defining legal immigration.

We will never remove the magnetic attraction to migrate here for a better quality of life, until we make life here as bad as the nations some people are leaving (some regions appear to be moving in that direction, but impossible to get that bad). QOL is not a valid justification for asylum, while most migrants are coached with a cliche statement about being afraid to return to home country, while many are probably actually afraid of their coyotes. 

The drug trade is fueling a lot of the illegal immigration. Human trafficking is a revenue stream and cover for drug smuggling. Why do you think they avoid legal ports of entry where legal asylum requests could be accepted without the arrests and family separation. The lawlessness in some central american countries is a win-win for drug cartels. After decades of throwing money at it, we have only marginal success in the long running war against drugs. About the only thing affecting it is cheap fenatyl (coming mainly from China), while heroin is still the major cash crop funding the Taliban in afghanistan. In fact numerous terrorists organizations have no qualms about plying the drug trade for operating revenue.

Just like the real solution to illegal immigration is to reduce the attraction (like clamping down on jobs for illegal workers here), the only real solution to the illegal drug trade is for americans to stop buying illegal drugs.  I won't hold my breath waiting for that, while legalized pot is a start (not without unintended consequences of it's own).

The political elite (swamp dwellers) from both parties lack motivation to reform immigration (for different reasons). Creating the worst kind of partisan cooperation.

JR

@ hodad- your identity politics is showing.

 

[living sounds]

No, hodad is right, John.

There is no current immigration crisis other than the one the administration manufactured. Illegal immigration has been at a low, net migration from Mexico is negative.

Trump is sowing and harwesting racist resentment. That's identity politics - of the worst kind. And his administration is hard at work privatizing internment and all sorts of things - to create windfall for Trumps cronies.

Trump is openly working from the Fascist playbook now. The sooner reasonable conservatives cut the cord the better.

 

[JohnRoberts]

No, hodad is right, John.

There is no current immigration crisis other than the one the administration manufactured. Illegal immigration has been at a low, net migration from Mexico is negative.

Crisis is political/media hyperbole likely being amped up for nov mid term election, but it is an unresolved "problem" with millions of illegal immigrants, here and more coming across porous borders. 

Trump is sowing and harwesting racist resentment. That's identity politics - of the worst kind. And his administration is hard at work privatizing internment and all sorts of things - to create windfall for Trumps cronies.

I dislike being called racist. I though it might taper off after President Obama left office, but old habits are hard to break.

Trump is openly working from the Fascist playbook now. The sooner reasonable conservatives cut the cord the better.

What no reference to nazism?

If you think you are making a compelling argument you are mistaken. Does that name calling strategy work when talking about migration in Germany? Germany is also an attractive magnet for migrants. Angela Merkel is not making much headway with EU partners to manage the issue with a EU wide solution, putting her coalition at risk.

JR

 

[living sounds]

I dislike being called racist. What no reference to nazism?

If you think you are making a compelling argument you are mistaken. Does that name calling strategy work when talking about migration in Germany? Germany is also an attractive magnet for migrants. Angela Merkel is not making much headway with EU partners to manage the issue with a EU wide solution, putting her coalition at risk.

JR

Call it Facism or rightwing authoritarianism or whatever. It is characterised by the use of tribal emotions, the dehumanization of groups of people as well as individuals for political reasons. It is characterized by the suspension of the rule of law in favor of the rule of the autocrat.

Anyone analyzing the president's recent statements, tweets and the actions of the executive branch must come to the conclusion that this is the path they are treading and more specifically where Trump wants to go.

Again, there is no actual crisis, it is all drummed up to create resentment for political gain.

This has nothing at all to do with Germany. We've got our own problems with right wing extremists unfortunately, and even more unfortunately, the world now lacks the American leadership that saved us 80 years ago.

 

[hodad]

  I dislike being called racist.
JR

Who called you racist?  Trump makes no bones about demonizing the "other" (brown people, mostly)--they're "criminals" who "infest" our country, etc. etc.  If you choose to overlook this because you support his other bad policies & positions, so be it.  But don't try to claim that appealing to people's bigotry & racism is not Trump's bread & butter. 

Of course, that you dislike being called racist does not mean you're not a racist.  Not that I'm saying you're racist or anything.  8)

 

[living sounds]

And BTW, economic policies pursued by Trump - namely protectionism and corporatism - are also in the Facist line. This is not Lincoln's, Eisenhower's or even Reagan's GOP.

 

[Banzai]

Another Trump favourite for immigrants: "invaders"

(not to forget "rapists" and "drug dealers")

 

[JohnRoberts]

Call it Facism or rightwing authoritarianism or whatever. It is characterised by the use of tribal emotions, the dehumanization of groups of people as well as individuals for political reasons. It is characterized by the suspension of the rule of law in favor of the rule of the autocrat.

Odd but the current argument is specifically about a strict interpretation of law (children must be separated from law breaking parents, for any and all crimes, for the children's safety.)

Anyone analyzing the president's recent statements, tweets and the actions of the executive branch must come to the conclusion that this is the path they are treading and more specifically where Trump wants to go.

again opinions vary

Again, there is no actual crisis, it is all drummed up to create resentment for political gain.

we agree

This has nothing at all to do with Germany. We've got our own problems with right wing extremists unfortunately, and even more unfortunately, the world now lacks the American leadership that saved us 80 years ago.

Germany coincidentally is the 2nd most attractive destination for migrants (US is first).  Also coincidentally Angela Merkel is currently wrestling with political opposition to increased migration that is challenging her government coalition. I expect you know this, but I share for the lurkers here not following world politics.

There is a new rise of nationalism (another -ism) on the increase around the world in opposition to the "open borders" movement. President Trump didn't invent this movement but he is using it for what its worth... He may turn into a politician yet.

And BTW, economic policies pursued by Trump - namely protectionism and corporatism - are also in the Facist line. This is not Lincoln's, Eisenhower's or even Reagan's GOP.

Are EU tariffs on US products Fascist?  Is the german government support for local industry Fascist?

Indeed President Trump is unlike any other politician, for better and worse. Do not confuse his opening gambits during trade negotiation, with expected endpoints or targets. So much drama comes from taking his hyperbole literally. Classic strategy to start high and settle lower.

Germany's largest car makers have already counter offered to abolish all car import tariffs between EU and US. The elephant in the room that few acknowledge is how many tariffs are already charged on numerous US exports. President Trump wants fair reciprocal trade, to remove/reduce existing protectionism against us. 

JR

PS: I don't want to start a new thread but the decline in political civility seems to be getting worse. A classic observation is that conservatives think liberals are ignorant, while liberals think conservatives are evil.  I have seen an increase of this "evil" characterization of all conservatives by political pundits. This could be considered as justification for even worse behavior toward people they don't agree with. I won't repeat what Donny Deutsch said about all Trump voters, but hint it included  "nazi". 

Washington (CNN) Rep. Maxine Waters called on her supporters to publicly confront and harass members of the Trump administration in ... 

We are still months away from the midterm election, I hope this doesn't telegraph even more of this particular and personal nastiness.  Politics is nasty enough already. 

 

[Bo Deadly]

That is only the obvious direct cost. There are indirect costs to the economy but this is not just about cost.

Absolutely. The US economy has always benefited greatly from cheap labor.

We are a country of laws, and there are laws defining legal immigration.

Well I was hoping to start a discussion about the financial aspects of the current "brute force" approach because if the numbers really do get to 4000 @ $2000 / person / day territory, that's 2.9 billion / year. But of course it's degenerated into name calling. I knew there was a reason I stay out of these discussions.

 

[living sounds]

Odd but the current argument is specifically about a strict interpretation of law (children must be separated from law breaking parents, for any and all crimes, for the children's safety.)again opinions varywe agreeGermany coincidentally is the 2nd most attractive destination for migrants (US is first).  Also coincidentally Angela Merkel is currently wrestling with political opposition to increased migration that is challenging her government coalition. I expect you know this, but I share for the lurkers here not following world politics.

There is a new rise of nationalism (another -ism) on the increase around the world in opposition to the "open borders" movement. President Trump didn't invent this movement but he is using it for what its worth... He may turn into a politician yet.
Are EU tariffs on US products Fascist?  Is the german government support for local industry Fascist?

Indeed President Trump is unlike any other politician, for better and worse. Do not confuse his opening gambits during trade negotiation, with expected endpoints or targets. So much drama comes from taking his hyperbole literally. Classic strategy to start high and settle lower.

Germany's largest car makers have already counter offered to abolish all car import tariffs between EU and US. The elephant in the room that few acknowledge is how many tariffs are already charged on numerous US exports. President Trump wants fair reciprocal trade, to remove/reduce existing protectionism against us. 

JR

PS: I don't want to start a new thread but the decline in political civility seems to be getting worse. A classic observation is that conservatives think liberals are ignorant, while liberals think conservatives are evil.  I have seen an increase of this "evil" characterization of all conservatives by political pundits. This could be considered as justification for even worse behavior toward people they don't agree with. I won't repeat what Donny Deutsch said about all Trump voters, but hint it included  "nazi".  We are still months away from the midterm election, I hope this doesn't telegraph even more of this particular and personal nastiness.  Politics is nasty enough already.

Throughout history technocratic explanations like "the current argument is specifically about a strict interpretation of law " have been used to justify evil actions.

Look at the intentions, history, character, motivations, policy goals, exploitation of human weeknesses etc. and you can see through the bullshit.

Coincidentally, Merkel has the same problem - a drummed up controversy by her coalition partner hoping for gains in an upcoming regional election.

 

[hodad]

Odd but the current argument is specifically about a strict interpretation of law (children must be separated from law breaking parents, for any and all crimes, for the children's safety.)

Odd that the past 2 presidents didn't interpret it that way.  Odd that Trump said he was doing this for political leverage.  Odd that Obama had developed a program that released asylum seekers prior to their court date and saw 99 percent of these people actually show up to court.  Odd that Trump ended this program. 

You are defending the inhuman, John, simply because it is not forbidden by law.  Being needlessly cruel because one can get away with it (and  one thinks it serves his political ends) is not normal and not right. 

 

[Gold]

Odd that the past 2 presidents didn't interpret it that way. 

Past administrations chose to deal with it in Civil Court, not Criminal Court. The law separating felons from their children applies to Criminal prosecution not Civil Prosecution.

The cynic in me thinks if one of these kids dies in detention then Trump is a "baby killer". I don't think even Trump can survive that.

 

[JohnRoberts]

Throughout history technocratic explanations like "the current argument is specifically about a strict interpretation of law " have been used to justify evil actions.

evil talking point... I may turn this into a drinking game. One beer for evil, a shot of hard stuff for every nazi mention.

Look at the intentions, history, character, motivations, policy goals, exploitation of human weeknesses etc. and you can see through the bullsh*t.

I am not smart enough to know everybody's intentions, I can only see their actions.

Coincidentally, Merkel has the same problem - a drummed up controversy by her coalition partner hoping for gains in an upcoming regional election.

Politics is always with us.

JR

 

[JohnRoberts]

Odd that the past 2 presidents didn't interpret it that way.  Odd that Trump said he was doing this for political leverage.  Odd that Obama had developed a program that released asylum seekers prior to their court date and saw 99 percent of these people actually show up to court.  Odd that Trump ended this program. 

we have experienced gridlock in congress for much too long. Frustrated by the inability to get legal reform President Obama used his pen to issue executive orders.

You are defending the inhuman, John, simply because it is not forbidden by law.  Being needlessly cruel because one can get away with it (and  one thinks it serves his political ends) is not normal and not right.

I am not defending anything and I hold both political parties responsible for not resolving this years ago.

The pressure ratcheted up by President Trumps "zero tolerance" to illegal entry has everybody knickers all wadded up. This is ugly and the opposition seems entrenched and willing to ride this through nov.  President Trump already blinked and reversed himself with another XO.

My sense is that Trump is trying to force resolution with political pressure but the swamp is too comfortable with the status quo to change. I do not expect resolution before Nov, and we will see how the silent majority feels about broken immigration laws.  It is a political calculation made by both sides and I am not smart enough to predict results (I was wrong about the last election), but polls have already reflected some movement away from typical first midterm pattern of losses for the party in power (of course still too early to call).

JR 

 

[hodad]

I am not defending anything and I hold both political parties responsible for not resolving this years ago.

JR

Let's talk about *one* political party that can't resolve this.  When W tried to push through some halfway reasonable immigration reform, his own party rose up against him and smacked him down.  And just the other day, House republicans were trying to put together some passable legislation and couldn't manage it.  Dems, by the way, were not even allowed to be a part of the discussion. 

The biggest disagreement here is within the republican party--the xenophobes are fighting with the Chamber of Commerce-style repubs--you know, the ones who understand how important migrant workers are to the US economy.  Obama managed to put together DACA, but Trump's been attacking it throughout his time in office. 

So maybe if the Rs could get their proverbial spit together, we could see if they could work something out with the Ds. 

Not counting on it happening any time soon.

 

[pucho812]

if I shoplift an item, would I be a thief or an undocumented buyer?

 

[Gold]

if I shoplift an item, would I be a thief or an undocumented buyer?

You’d be a shoplifter who is a citizen as opposed to a shoplifter who isn’t a citizen. Assuming you are shoplifting in the good ole USA.