Trying to learn about OpAmp application...

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Ethan

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PRR answered a bunch of questions in my last round of trying to wrap my head around transformers and opamps for balancing, which has led to this quesion. This isn't something I'm trying to build, just trying to understand further...

Can this first picture segment of a clean up output section (of an LA-4a http://www.waltzingbear.com/Schematics/Urei/LA_4A.htm) be replaced with the second one below (without problems)? All help is greatly appreciated!
output1.jpg

output2.jpg

-Ethan
 
There wouldn't be much point in doing that... The discrete transistors form a current booster to drive low impedance loads. If you wanted to add the two op-amps for an active balanced output, you'd get rid of the two discrete transistors.
 
you could get rid of the transformer and use a mackie type circuit
 
[quote author="NewYorkDave"]There wouldn't be much point in doing that... The discrete transistors form a current booster to drive low impedance loads. If you wanted to add the two op-amps for an active balanced output, you'd get rid of the two discrete transistors.[/quote]

Thank you Dave. But would there be anything "wrong" about doing it this way? What I mean by wrong is would the output be unusable?

Thanks as always!
-E (One day, far far away, maybe I'll be the one answering the questions :cry:)
 
[quote author="Gus"]you could get rid of the transformer and use a mackie type circuit[/quote]
Is there an example that I could look at?

Thanks,
-E
 
It would be something like a 100 ohm from the output of the opamp to pin 3 and a 100 ohm pin 2 to ground. This is somewhat like some neumann, akg, rode microphones do for the output.

Still would be better with a transformer. There is a web site with a good description of the mackie circuit, if I find it I will post the link.

It just another output drive type.
 
Ahh...
Cool!

I'm consistantly impressed by how you guys just take a quick look at a portion of a circuit and rattle off a dozen changes with values to 'fix' it. Might sound like a silly question but what's the thought process in doing something like that? I sit down and fiddle with Ohm's law on paper for a while to get a tiny, TINY, glimpse into what's going on... If I could only understand this stuff like Deductive Logic... :cry: I guess as my old college logic professor used to say: "you either see it, or you don't."
 
It sounds like Gus is describing a "ground compensated" or "ground cancelling" output. Soundcraft uses this in many of their mixers.
http://www.dself.dsl.pipex.com/ampins/balanced/balanced.htm#4
 
look at the akg414/tl and uls at this site

http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/peaks/5212/start.htm
 
> take a quick look at a portion of a circuit and rattle off a dozen changes with values to 'fix' it. Might sound like a silly question but what's the thought process in doing something like that?

Partly from looking at LOTS of schematics. It's like reading Greek: you could do it with a Greek/American dictionary, word-by-word; a Greek can read it at a glance. But a Greek child who just started to read would struggle with literary or technical works. And as adults, we pick up new languages even slower than children. And it IS a language.

The original circuit (incompete in your extract) is an inverting op-amp (with a buffer) driving a transformer. The gain of the op-amp is just the ratio of the two resistors: 10K (not shown) and 75K, or 7.5. Actually -7.5 since it inverts, though we may not care. The ratio of the transformer is not stated, and that's where experience counts. The power supplies (not shown) are +/-15V. That's not really enough for Pro-level output on raw sources, but is enough for a limiter which, by definition, has a maximum output level that won't be exceeded. So 1:1 will work. 1:2 or 150:600 is possible, and a standard part, but that buffer is barely able to drive 150Ω with true authority (the 4.7K resistor and the transistor Beta suggest it wants to drive much more than 100Ω).

Now you want to lose the transformer (cause you don't have it). What changes are needed?

Actually, 99% of the time you will be fine just taking an unbalanced output from the holes where the transformer primary should be. Maybe add a "small" (compared to 600Ω) series resistor, like 47Ω, to protect against accidents. If you are driving an unbalanced input, balancing the output is a waste. If you are driving a balanced input, you can feed it with an unbalanced output and still have some noise rejection.

If you must have a balanced output: you already have a fine line-driver. You need a second driver working in inverse phase. 5534 with gain of -1 is fine. And since the output is now 1-(-1)=2, you have output level 2 times higher than original. So go back to that 75K resistor and cut it in half: 38K. Now the original line driver works at gain of 3.8, the new second driver delivers the same signal on the other side, so gain is 2*3.8= 7.5, just like before.

33K is acceptable feedback resistors for the 5534, though its input current is high enough, and available drive high enoughm that 10K or 4K7 might give lower DC offset and better performance.

Two 220Ω output resistors gives totak 440Ω output impedance: not low enough to be "low", not true 600Ω. It will work fine, especially in typical medium-Z loads. But 47Ω will work too, is enough to protect from most accidents, and is really low compared to 600Ω.

Yes, Mackie has some fine output designs, but this isn't a Mackie and there is nothing magic enough in Mackie designs to copy them over an LA4. Yes, impedance-balanced is a good way to cheat, but works best with cheap "balanced" inputs and poorly with unbalanced inputs.

Since this box probably has other problems, I wanted to give you the simplest possible way to get it working, so you can wring it out and see how you like it before investing more time and cash. Just taking an unbalanced output is a $0.12 solution and will work fine unless your studio is riddled with ground-loops. If you must balance, one 5534 and a few resistors is the $2 answer, and will have the least effect on "sound".
 
Everybody has their own "system" for analyzing circuits.
Just like good pool players. They develop a system that works for their particular talents for analyzing all the shots, and thus they know where to hit the cue ball and how hard, in order to get shape on the next shot.

PRR seems to have a really good system! It seems to be impedance orientated, but then what other system could be used for looking at circuits?

My system? Ohm's Law!:razz: Hopefully it will become a little more advanced as time goes on.

:guinness:
 
[quote author="PRR"]Since this box probably has other problems, I wanted to give you the simplest possible way to get it working, so you can wring it out and see how you like it before investing more time and cash. Just taking an unbalanced output is a $0.12 solution and will work fine unless your studio is riddled with ground-loops. If you must balance, one 5534 and a few resistors is the $2 answer, and will have the least effect on "sound".[/quote]

Now this begs the question, PRR, how would YOU do it if money were no object, with opamps. I still have yet to be able to discern a "good" design from a mediocre one. I look at a schematic, see some familiar things, and unfamiliar blocks and just wonder hmmm, I wonder why that is...at which point I bother you :roll:

I actually have the transformer for this box, this is more or less an exercise in trying to learn something while I'm already elbow deep in this thing.

Thank you guys for taking all this time to help me understand some basic stuff.
-E
 
[quote author="PRR"]
LA4-notran.gif
[/quote]
...And 50 pF external compensation for 5534 at unity gain.
But some 5534 chips performs without it... Like lottery...
xvlk
 
> 50 pF external compensation for 5534 at unity gain.

True, a good idea, and I should also emphasize proper supply bypassing on any op-amp, especially the high-performance ones.

But note that this amp runs at a noise-gain of 2, not unity.
 
> how would YOU do it if money were no object

Well, money is ALWAYS an object, isn't it? Or at least, with big bucks on tap, you can pay a producer to sweat the small stuff.

> how would YOU do it if money were no object, with opamps.

Starting a problem by saying "with op-amps" might be like starting a carrot-cake with cabbage. It might not be the road to happiness. It is only recently that I would conceed that any chip was the equal of the best discrete modules.

But yes, modern op-amps can handle audio fine. Given that you have a fine line-amp already, if you wanted to get the iron out, I would just add a second line-amp and adjust the gain. Adding an op-amp behind the existing line amp serves no purpose, and just complicates things. Construction, but also the distortion spectrum. You usually want a minimum of parts in the path.

Which is why what I would do, in the minimalistic work I do, is just take an unbalanced output from the existing line-amp. Transformers (and push-pull outputs) have their place: big systems and noisy environments. They are over-kill (and added distortion) for many small studios.
 
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