Ukraine possible outcomes query

[JohnRoberts]

Ukraine has been of interest in the world news.

The fighting has gone on longer than most (me included) expected.

It is unclear exactly what outcome world leaders want. Putin and Zelenskyy are adequately clear about their intent, but the rest are hard to understand concisely.

JR

 

[moamps]

..Zellinsyy..Zellinskyy..

Could you write the last name of the Ukrainian president correctly?

https://www.president.gov.ua/en/new...ozpoviv-istoriyu-svoyeyi-rodini-pid-cha-59437

 

[JohnRoberts]

..Zellinsyy..Zellinskyy..

Could you write the last name of the Ukrainian president correctly?

https://www.president.gov.ua/en/new...ozpoviv-istoriyu-svoyeyi-rodini-pid-cha-59437

I'll try...

The link you posted spells his name zelenskij

Sorry if this bothers you. I corrected it in my original post to "Zelenskyy" is that close enough?

JR

 

[rock soderstrom]

It's amazing, the Ukrainian president is spelled like this in the German media:
Volodymyr Selenskyj, sometimes also
Wolodimir Selenski or Wlademir Selinski.

This number of variants is usually known only from city names but not from human names. This probably has something to do with the Cyrillic origin / the Russian spelling or its international translations.

 

[rock soderstrom]

Could you write the last name of the Ukrainian president correctly?

What is the right version?

 

[volker]

It's amazing, the Ukrainian president is spelled like this in the German media:
Volodymyr Selenskyj, sometimes also
Wolodimir Selenski or Wlademir Selinski.

This number of variants is usually known only from city names but not from human names. This probably has something to do with the Cyrillic origin / the Russian spelling or its international translations.

I has always been this way due to the translation. You can find a dozen different ways "Tchaikovsky" is being spelt on album covers, sheet music, articles, etc. It is also very much dependent on the language it is being translated to.

 

[moamps]

What is the right version?

As the official website suggests:

 

[moamps]

I has always been this way due to the translation. You can find a dozen different ways "Tchaikovsky" is being spelt on album covers, sheet music, articles, etc. It is also very much dependent on the language it is being translated to.

True, these differences were also made in order to pronounce it as correctly as possible in target language.

 

[moamps]

Sorry if this bothers you.

If a poll talks about someone's death or life, I guess they should spell their name correctly.

I corrected it in my original post to "Zelenskyy" is that close enough?

JR

Yes.

 

[rock soderstrom]

As the official website suggests:

View attachment 92600

Ok, thanks. I will use this version from now on.

 

[JohnRoberts]

Now that we settled that, what about the larger questions?

JR

 

[cyrano]

Your answer already are obsolete. The EU will provide money, weapons and soldiers. That means a full-blown war soon.

 

[rock soderstrom]

The EU will provide money, weapons and soldiers.

Soldiers?? Do you have a source for that? Which country do they come from?

 

[living sounds]

I don't understand the question. Are we to say what we wish for or what we think will happen? Or who is meant by "we"?

 

[cyrano]

Soldiers?? Do you have a source for that? Which country do they come from?

NATO's secretary general, Jens Stoltenberg stated that the EU should defend it's borders. Meanwhile, EU mp's want to give Ukraine not only EU membership, but maybe also NATO membership.

I've just read it in the paper:

https://www.telegraaf.nl/nieuws/161...elier-naar-rusland-voor-ontmoeting-met-poetin
Sorry it's in Dutch, couldn't find any other source.

So that's 10 billion € + heavy arms + soldiers. Even if the soldiers will only be discussed in june, during the NATO meeting in Madrid.

Google translate of the relevant part:

Stoltenberg: NATO must be able to repel Eastern Europe invasion
NATO wants to station so many permanent troops in Eastern Europe that they can independently repel a possible Russian invasion of NATO countries. In an interview with the British newspaper The Telegraph, NATO chief Jens Stoltenberg says that the plans for this are being worked out.

According to Stoltenberg, the Russian attack on Ukraine has created a "new reality" that threatens European security. "NATO must adapt to this new reality. And that is exactly what we are doing," said Stoltenberg.

He points out that NATO previously had only a limited force on the eastern flank and that this was mainly intended as a deterrent. In the event of an attack, reinforcements would have to come from other countries.

Meanwhile, the troop strength has increased almost tenfold, to about 40,000 men. But more needs to be done, Stoltenberg told the newspaper. "We must ensure that we remain able to protect and defend all NATO allies in a more dangerous world."

There is a NATO summit in Madrid in June. Stoltenberg wants a decision to be made about the plans.

Note that these soldiers are "to defend NATO's eastern border", but if Ukraine is enlisted in the EU or the NATO by then, I suppose Ukraine will be NATO's eastern border.

This way, Putin has been framed completely. First, he was promised NATO wouldn't expand to the east. A promise that was broken a number of years later and that can be covered up now because Putin has invaded Ukraine and committed numerous war crimes...

Hence, WWIII.

Oh, BTW, did you know Putin isn't Russian, but Georgian? At least, according to Vera Putina, who considers herself his mother:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vera_Putina

 

[JohnRoberts]

should I move these musings to the ukraine thread, or have two threads active?

JR

 

[living sounds]

Note that these soldiers are "to defend NATO's eastern border", but if Ukraine is enlisted in the EU or the NATO by then, I suppose Ukraine will be NATO's eastern border.

This way, Putin has been framed completely. First, he was promised NATO wouldn't expand to the east. A promise that was broken a number of years later and that can be covered up now because Putin has invaded Ukraine and committed numerous war crimes...

Hence, WWIII.

Putin wasn't promised NATO wouldn't expand to the east. NATO expanded to the east in 1999 and Putin became president in 2000.

What you are probably are talking about are statements made in the very early 90s, there was never anything legally binding signed in this regard.

 

[JohnRoberts]

ok never mind...

 

[cyrano]

Putin wasn't promised NATO wouldn't expand to the east. NATO expanded to the east in 1999 and Putin became president in 2000.

What you are probably are talking about are statements made in the very early 90s, there was never anything legally binding signed in this regard.

Yes, of course. But don't forget Putin is a KGB (FSB now) guy. If they pull strings, he jumps. And they were definitely around back then.

There's a good analysis of what happened here:

https://larouchepub.com/other/2021/4824-chatham_house_lies_about_aggre.html
Lyndon Larouche isn't exactly a commie, is he?

You're right, it isn't technically a signed agreement. Just lots of promises by a number of different powerful people. Maybe the Russians are naive to think these promises will last decades?

 

[living sounds]

Everyone knows that in a democracy simple declarations only last until the next election and government.

Fundamentally, eastern European countries joining NATO would have never posed an actual military thread to Russia. They want to compete by innovating in the marketplace. NATO is only a thread to a Russian aggressor. But Russia went in the wrong direction with Putin or probably already during his predecessor's term. He made the country dependent on the extraction industry for his own enrichment. They could have invested in building up a modern economy with a high tech sector, but a distrustful zero-sum mentality prevailed.

Putin and probably most of today's elites are authoritarians, they aim for control, so yes, that's KGB mentality. And they imagine themselves to be a global power, an empire. They are very far from that. The sooner they learn to live with reality, like many other countries had to, the better.