USA power grid

[Brian Roth]

This afternoon, we had a smallish thunderstorm roll through here and had a very brief mains outage (less than a minute). Had another one earlier in the week during a t-storm. Had to reset the clocks in the microwave and stove....lol

Friend and I were sitting on the porch and the conversation wandered into the stability of the USA grid and not just the local blips.

It seems that the grid is not all that stable. I've read multiple articles in recent years regarding that topic. I am aware of the NERC, SPP, etc. Yet for the years I've studied this I am still somewhat uneasy about the robustness of the interconnected grid.

20-ish years ago, I was driving from Okla City to Little Rock for a studio project. Somewhere in Ark. I was amazed by a HUGE trio of metal towers with many lines crossing overhead on I-40. My friend in Little Rock told me those were the outgoing lines from a nuclear power plant. On my return trip, I wondered what would happen if a major tornado passed through those lines.

In recent times, I read news articles about "low tech" attacks on substations.

It seems the transmission system is not only old, but much of it is through rural areas. It all seems like a house of cards. I'm not paranoid but it seems unstable at best.

Since I'm posting in the Brewery I fear this will descend into a screaming political conversation. Please...I'm looking into the engineering aspects.

If it turns into political screaming, I will quickly walk away and let the partisans scream into their echo chambers.

Best,

Bri

 

[soliloqueen]

here in michigan we recently had an event where we had 100k+ people out of power, but there was no central failure! It was tens of thousands of small, end-of-line malfunctions happening at once due to freezing rain. One of the craziest things I've ever seen.

 

[Brian Roth]

Recently in my home state, 100K+ in the Tulsa area lost local power due to a severe t-storm. I think they were still restoring power a week later. Not a total grid failure, but a bazillion <g> local power poles downed.

Bri

 

[pucho812]

We had a mains outage today too. First of the summer in l.a. it was brief, a couple of minutes but still.
Not looking forward to more of these

 

[shabtek]

there is a severe shortage of distribution transformers--'supply chain' (?)
one big heat wave/bad storm season could be very challenging
substation transformers have a long lead time, very little domestic (us) production
make sure your generator is in good working order
make ice in any spare space in your freezer

 

[scott2000]

Been noticing lower voltage from the wall lately during the day. Maybe air conditioners working hard. Not sure it's any hotter than it has been in the past few years though...
Wonder if people moving here from other places has any effect on stuff. How cold does it need to be inside?

 

[JohnRoberts]

Yesterday my outdoor thermometer logged a peak 104', reality was mid/high 90s. I have two outdoor temperature remotes. During afternoon sun one side of the house reads up to 10' warmer,,, after the sun sets the cooler car port retains heat and reads warmer than the hot side...(thermal mass lag?) .
===

Having the power blink off from thunder strikes, is a slight irritation but less irritating than it staying off until some fuse gets replaced. I think about ten years ago they installed breakers to momentarily disconnect distribution lines from the substation. I have stopped resetting the clocks in every appliance, but the very old clock radio in my bedroom requires a manual reset.

===

There have been physical attacks on substations (high power rifles penetrating transformers), and cyber attacks for years. This is one thing on the long list of infrastructure that keeps civilization rolling smoothly and must be hardened.

I don't know that the political class has done the math on where the power will come from for total conversion to EVs.

===
Speaking of power the big utility in CA, PG&E has applied for a several $ billion federal government loan to bury power lines. Not sure how burying power lines qualifies for the climate change loan authority, but that is not the largest stretch made by CA.

JR

 

[cyrano]

Isn't burying power lines a measure to prevent wildfires?

 

[JohnRoberts]

Isn't burying power lines a measure to prevent wildfires?

Exactly, but a relatively expensive remedy... Wildfires are a huge monetary liability exposure for PG&E. It isn't about saving mother earth.

They are just trying to get uncle sugar to bail them out because the forests in CA have not been properly managed (to reduce combustable fuel).

Just like the Canadian forests that haven't been properly managed.

JR

 

[AnalogPackrat]

Isn't burying power lines a measure to prevent wildfires?

In mountainous territory (where most California wildfires occur) it is extremely expensive to bury lines. How much diesel fuel is burned by the excavation equipment to bury tens of thousands of miles of distribution and service lines?

I'm not sure it's feasible at all above a certain voltage. The big deadly Paradise fire in 2018 or 2019 was ignited by higher voltage transmission lines in high wind. As I recall, an insulator/support for one of these lines broke in the wind and the HV line fell into brush and trees below. The terrain there is very rugged and steep.

Buried lines are more prone to damage due to earthquakes and landslides (also problematic in many of the same areas in California). Repair and maintenance of buried lines can be very costly. Buried transformer vaults are at risk of flooding. It's no magic solution.

 

[Brian Roth]

Years ago back in Okla we had a monster ice storm. There was "hue and cry" to force OG+E to bury all their lines. IIRC, the utility said "sure, if you pony up 100's of billions dollars".

It's one thing to bury lines in a neighborhood as they did at my previous house. It's VERY different when transmitting 100/200/300/+ KV across the state. Plus, all the transformer stations would be above ground.

Bri

 

[AnalogPackrat]

Years ago back in Okla we had a monster ice storm. There was "hue and cry" to force OG+E to bury all their lines. IIRC, the utility said "sure, if you pony up 100's of billions dollars".

Reality intrudes.

It's one thing to bury lines in a neighborhood as they did at my previous house.

It's also a lot easier to do when an area is initially developed than after when other buried utilities are present.

My former house in California had a 400' buried service drop. There was one pole on my property with the pole pig. The line came down from the road to that pole then back up to my neighbor's pole (end of the line). In rural areas like that the ROI makes no sense.

My current home also has buried service, but it's distribution level (likely 10-20kV) for 250' to a pad mounted transformer then a buried service drop another 150-175' to the service entrance. Both homes had the buried stuff done at initial service install.

It's VERY different when transmitting 100/200/300/+ KV across the state. Plus, all the transformer stations would be above ground.

Yep.

Bri

 

[iomegaman]

My son-in-law writes code for Schweitzer engineering...a small(-ish) company in Pullman Washington..they basically make the stuff that analyzes the power grid and detects faults/etc...he was telling me they have systems in place that can detect a spark on a line several miles away in milliseconds and divert it to another route...they're the guys making the "infrastructure secure" etc...he basically gets a yearly assignment to write code for the end user to use on a handful of products...great company and business is booming...they're always looking for techy folks...some of the stuff that is available is actually pretty amazing considering how much ground they have to cover and the conditions...
But yeah the infrastructure in a LOT of places is old and needing upgrading and PG&E has board members that need to be in prison for some of the crap they've pulled...they were ordered by a Judge YEARS ago to deal with some of the "fire issues" that led to the Paradise fires and they refused to do it.

 

[Brian Roth]

Indeed "new tech" is out there.Maybe I'm just worried about all the weakspots.

Bri

 

[JohnRoberts]

But yeah the infrastructure in a LOT of places is old and needing upgrading and PG&E has board members that need to be in prison for some of the crap they've pulled...they were ordered by a Judge YEARS ago to deal with some of the "fire issues" that led to the Paradise fires and they refused to do it.

My brother's wife works at PG&E... I don't talk with her but my brother, her husband, is extremely uncomplimentary when speaking about the lady now in charge at PG&E. She has made promises publicly that are just impossible to keep. Like promising to bury 10,000 miles of power lines in 2021... So far they have buried a couple hundred miles. With low single digit $ millions cost per mile this is a huge expense ultimately paid by the customers. The talks about multi billion dollar federal loans is just postponing the day of reckoning.

PG&E is not innocent but not wholly to blame for raging wildfires. CA forest management has been compromised by activists thwarting reasonable maintenance to lower dead tree and underbrush fuel available.PG&E lines may have started a few fires but bad forest management caused most of the deaths.

JR

 

[cyrano]

Exactly, but a relatively expensive remedy... Wildfires are a huge monetary liability exposure for PG&E. It isn't about saving mother earth.

They are just trying to get uncle sugar to bail them out because the forests in CA have not been properly managed (to reduce combustable fuel).

Just like the Canadian forests that haven't been properly managed.

What you call "proper" forest management is detrimental to nature. The layer of dead wood and shrubs is essential to wildlife. More than half of the insect species living in that layer are on the point of extermination...

 

[user 37518]

What you call "proper" forest management is detrimental to nature. The layer of dead wood and shrubs is essential to wildlife. More than half of the insect species living in that layer are on the point of extermination...

 

[JohnRoberts]

What you call "proper" forest management is detrimental to nature.

so forest management is more detrimental to nature than out of control wildfires?

The layer of dead wood and shrubs is essential to wildlife.

? The purpose of controlled burns and forest management is not to eliminate all dead wood and undergrowth, just to keep it below a dangerous tipping point, where out of control wildfires can occur.

More than half of the insect species living in that layer are on the point of extermination...

The statistic sounds a little brown...?

National Geographic on burns.. controlled burns

Controlled burns can also reduce insect populations and destroy invasive plants. In addition, fire can be rejuvenating. It returns nutrients to the soil in the ashes of vegetation that could otherwise take years to decompose.

I guess Nat Geo doesn't love insects.

JR

 

[scott2000]

No issues with insects here unfortunately

 

[Youngwhisk]

What you call "proper" forest management is detrimental to nature. The layer of dead wood and shrubs is essential to wildlife. More than half of the insect species living in that layer are on the point of extermination...

There have been forest fires ever since there have been trees. If forest management is not done, Mother Nature will do it for you. I live in a heavily forested area of Canada. There used to be prescribed burns to protect against fires or insects. That stopped due to environmental group pressure. A number of years ago (10?) there was an extremely large area of trees killed by pine beetles. The trees still stood but were dead and very dry. They logged a lot of those dead trees but some caught on fire and burned fiercely. One morning when I still worked, it was light at 7:30 in the morning but at 9:30 AM it was as dark as any winter night I have ever seen due to the smoke. That lasted for a few hours until the wind changed direction. I am not sure if you are aware of how large the forested areas of Canada are. There are historical findings that indicate there were very large forest fires before there were people here. There are also stories that the native people used to set fires to clear land and remove undergrowth. With the undergrowth removed and new growth established there is plenty of food for wildlife. Having said all that, too much logging and exporting of raw logs to other countries can and has reduced the amount of product in some areas. There are a number of mills that have closed. Contrary to some opinions, the trees do grow back. There are tree planting crews that plant millions of seedlings every year. There are areas that have been cut 2 or 3 times over a few generations.

 

[Brian Roth]

I understand the points made here in the VEER <g>. My original reason for this thread was to discuss the Macro issues...not the Micro (ice storms, fires, etc.) How robust it the grid? I recall decades ago that the entire NE part of the USA went dark due to cascading failures.

Bri