When is a High-End Analyser Worth it?

[thermionic]

Hi,

Senarios where an AP / R+S / Prism etc. analyser is obviously worth having:

You're doing scientific work, such as Samuel did with his famous opamp paper

You're designing AD / DA converters and are engaged in a war of paper specs


Scenarios where you can use a much cheaper analyser such as a Lindos LA100:

You're a repair / modification engineer.

Small production of analogue items such as preamps / comps etc. The Lindos will run through a battery of FR / THD / Noise tests in a second and you'll know if it's ready for the outside world.

If item in question contains transformers... Small details will be swamped by the transformers' inherent distortion, so an analyser that goes down to a grillionth of a percent will be pointless

If someone in the latter group, i.e. those I suppose can do fine with a Lindos, were to purchase something like an AP, would it be anything other than an ego massage / way to impress clients? I have a nice digital scope and a Lindos - what else is to want? Why do I lust after an AP? 

 

[Gold]

I think you are right. A friend just got a Lindos A couple of months ago. They are virtually unknown in the US as far as I can tell. It's a great box. It kind of does everything you need for daily maintenance tasks but nothing extra. It's really wonderful that it's so small. I also like that you can save test routines. So you can have it run a daily test routine before you start for the day. Very handy.

If I had known about it I would have seriously considered it over the AP portable one. It obviously doesn't do as much but at $1200 as opposed to about $8500 for a Portable One it's a real strong contender.

 

[Rochey]

It all depends on the nature of the product you are making.

the high end testers also give us access to digital signals (both control and audio). That's nice.
Their noise floor is also several dB below the device under test.

If your product has a higher noise floor, such as EQ systems etc (in my limited experience), then you may be able to do a lot with a good soundcard... but then the SW tools aren't always as great.

Given a choice and a bit of money, I'd go hunting for an used audio precision. The SW is excellent, well known, offers scripting and runs with a basic copy of windows.

i use an old ATS-2 for Expat Audio testing, and have found it to be trusty workhorse.

 

[pucho812]

We have several AP machines at work. I could imagine life with out them although we could do without the digital I/O options as we handle all analog

 

[Gold]

the high end testers also give us access to digital signals (both control and audio). That's nice.

My Portable one is analog only. I bought mine new. I'm not a great tech, had never used anything like an AP, and I don't have a lot of spare time. I wanted to know that the test set was working properly and that strange results were pilot error and not a dodgy machine. I think you have to be a power user to buy used. Maybe buying from a dealer with some sort of guarantee would work but it won't be dirt cheap. The ATS-1 with digital is about 12K new as is the 5xx series. Even used it would be a lot more than the Lindos.

If your product has a higher noise floor, such as EQ systems etc (in my limited experience), then you may be able to do a lot with a good soundcard... but then the SW tools aren't always as great.

Soundcards and software is okay in a studio setup but a calibrated hardware piece with a front end designed for test and measurement is a million times better IMO. The user also has to test the test setup to make sure it's accurate. That's a deal killer for me.

The Lindos is unique and very well designed for middle ground audio testing but really shines as a facility checker. The lower noise floor and fancier test routines aren't really necessary for a lot of work. Justin has done pretty well with a Lindos. I think I remember Ruffrecords saying he has one. It will get you pretty far.

 

[ruffrecords]

Yes, I have a Lindos MS10. It is great for sweeps of EQs and for measuring noise to a recognized standard and it is balanced in and out. I don't use it to measure distortion because it only does that at 1KHz; I have a dedicated wave analyser for that. It's only other limitation is that the maximum input level it will accept is only +18dBu. Other than that it is a great little device and it produced nice html pages of its results.

P.S. Neutrik does some nice analysers that are a bit more expensive than the Lindos but I think they have more extensive distortion tests.

Cheers

Ian

 

[bruno2000]

I recently saw a Lindos LA100 on eBay for 1250 POUNDS.  Is this price way off? That would be about $2080 at today's rate.
Thanks!
Best,
Bruno2000

 

[thermionic]

Neutrik have the new Flexus 100 - I saw it a few months back at a show. Noise and THD floor specs are hard to find, though...wonder if they want you to call for that? http://www.neutrik.co.uk/en-uk/audio/test-and-measurement/rack-mount-audio-analysers/flexus-fx100 Can anyone locate them?

There's also the Stanford Instruments unit to consider. It's a lot cheaper than a comparable AP, but - obviously- doesn't go quite as low THD / noise-wise: http://www.thinksrs.com/products/SR1.htm

 

[thermionic]

I recently saw a Lindos LA100 on eBay for 1250 POUNDS.  Is this price way off? That would be about $2080 at today's rate.
Thanks!
Best,
Bruno2000

Depends on whether it's the silver version, which software it's running, whether it's got a backlit display and how old it is. You see the pre-silver LA100s going for around half that. For a plug-and-play analyser it's hard to beat. But why do I lust after an AP so much? Is it my ego? Will it impress my clients? Is it purely that AP have done a nice marketing job, akin to ProTools?

 

[Gold]

I recently saw a Lindos LA100 on eBay for 1250 POUNDS.  Is this price way off? That would be about $2080 at today's rate.

I was talking about the MiniSonic MS20. The LA100 is more expensive. I haven't checked out the LA100. It says "contact for pricing" on the website.

 

[bruno2000]

I recently saw a Lindos LA100 on eBay for 1250 POUNDS.  Is this price way off? That would be about $2080 at today's rate.
Thanks!
Best,
Bruno2000

Depends on whether it's the silver version, which software it's running, whether it's got a backlit display and how old it is. You see the pre-silver LA100s going for around half that. For a plug-and-play analyser it's hard to beat. But why do I lust after an AP so much? Is it my ego? Will it impress my clients? Is it purely that AP have done a nice marketing job, akin to ProTools?

We have a System One at the studio which we bought new a LONG time ago.  It's a real workhorse, especially for setting up tape machines.  That was what I was used to, so I bought a used System Two for my shop and I don't look back, but then again, I've never used an LA100.  I really like the display, and the integration to the computer.  The other plus is that it has diagnostic routines built in.  Just my $0.02.
Best,
Bruno2000

 

[thermionic]

We have several AP machines at work. I could imagine life with out them although we could do without the digital I/O options as we handle all analog

Assuming that's a typo and you meant 'couldn't imagine' - why? If you're analogue-based, what does the AP give you that you can't get elsewhere? I've yet to find an analogue fault that couldn't be detected by my humble LA100 pair.

I couldn't imagine life without my Lindos because it's so fast - I know whether an item's up to spec in a second. Is this why you couldn't live without the AP? Maybe it's not the AP per-se that you couldn't live without, but a speedy way to check an item out? And let's face it, how many analogue items find their way onto your bench that have THD or noise below -96dB? That's where the money goes on an AP - but how often do you need it? Did you need to test a Gordon preamp recently?

 

[thermionic]

BTW - What really attracts me to a high-end analyser such as AP or Prism is the combination of low-distortion generator and high-res FFT. This would diagnose / help refine about 99% of all my projects... You can get good FFT software packages, but there's the convenience of a hardware system... I really miss this on the LA100.

I've looked at standalone FFT analysers, but a semi-decent one is into AP / Stanford kind of money, anyway... And you want a really nice generator, which isn't easy to find on its own.

 

[guy_4]

Hi Ian,
Happy to know you have a Lindos MS10 and you like it.

Santa Claus brought me a brand new MS20 set with a MM1 mic, but unfortunately I got no time to really use it since this time... :'(
Also I had the problem of removing the battery but impossible to fit it back in place, and that remains  to be solved...a bad design anyway.
For my maintenance works I have a lab with the usual measuring instruments, but for my service calls I was in search of something small, easy to use and ...affordable.
That's where I found the Lindos MS20, and thought it to be a good answer, with the tests sequence feature and PC control.
A new feature that I also liked on the MS20 is the W&F and Tape Speed measurement, as I still do a lot of tape recorders service these days.
Best,
Guy

 

[dirkwright]

So, these systems are better than, say, a Ross Martin 4222 based ADC + USB interface + computer with FFT software? For a generator, you could use one of Victor's oscillators (he's from Latvia and sells on eBay).
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ultra-low-distortion-0-00001-1kHz-sine-generator-assembled-and-tested-PCB-/321313719203?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4acfca43a3
Yes, it's been verified by others. distortion so low it don't matter what you're testing.

 

[JohnRoberts]

Resolution floor is always an issue with test equipment. Like how do you measure the test equipment?

That said, most of my analog design work, before working at Peavey was done with budget test equipment (thank you Heath kit).

This can even impose a discipline to not design by trial end error, but actually understand the controlling mechanisms.

Back in the '80s I sold a low end piece of test gear (TS-1) that even though it was not "bench" quality, it was popular and very useful. Usually when troubleshooting malfunctioning gear, it not about identifying some sputz a few zeros to the right of the decimal, but some much grosser error, and so easier to read.

I suspect a decent computer sound card with serviceable interface will get you 99.9% where you ever need to go for troubleshooting.

If you need to publish specifications and do not have confidence (or resolution) in your bench, you can find a friendly pro bench somewhere to run your tests.  When I was doing design consulting, my clients always had better test benches than I did , so they verified my design's performance for me.  I rarely received surprises.

JR

 

[thermionic]

Usually when troubleshooting malfunctioning gear, it not about identifying some sputz a few zeros to the right of the decimal, but some much grosser error, and so easier to read.

That's exactly how I use the Lindos LA100. It goes to around 0.002% THD if memory serves me right. If I'm testing something that has THD below its threshold when working correctly, it's unlikely to have a fault that renders its THD somewhere between its correct figure and 0.002%.... Not impossible, but unlikely... I do crave a nice FFT, though. Something with a ROM-based OS that boots in seconds and gives me a similar resolution to an AP / Prism etc. Most issues revolve around noise and / or distortion - a low-distortion generator + high-res FFT will tell you if these problems exist in a millisecond. Much as the LA100 tells me when there's an issue, an FFT would potentially be more specific in pointing the figure.

 

[thermionic]

So, these systems are better than, say, a Ross Martin 4222 based ADC + USB interface + computer with FFT software? For a generator, you could use one of Victor's oscillators (he's from Latvia and sells on eBay).
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ultra-low-distortion-0-00001-1kHz-sine-generator-assembled-and-tested-PCB-/321313719203?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4acfca43a3
Yes, it's been verified by others. distortion so low it don't matter what you're testing.

This looks very cool, although you'd have to add balancing buffers for a lot of work. One issue with having just 1k and 10k, though, would be if you're testing filters... What if the mid and HF filters work fine, giving you 0.00001 performance, but the LF network has an issue?

 

[ruffrecords]

So, these systems are better than, say, a Ross Martin 4222 based ADC + USB interface + computer with FFT software? F

Not better, just different. Aimed at different end users and markets.

Cheers

Ian

 

[dirkwright]

So, these systems are better than, say, a Ross Martin 4222 based ADC + USB interface + computer with FFT software? For a generator, you could use one of Victor's oscillators (he's from Latvia and sells on eBay).
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ultra-low-distortion-0-00001-1kHz-sine-generator-assembled-and-tested-PCB-/321313719203?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4acfca43a3
Yes, it's been verified by others. distortion so low it don't matter what you're testing.

This looks very cool, although you'd have to add balancing buffers for a lot of work. One issue with having just 1k and 10k, though, would be if you're testing filters... What if the mid and HF filters work fine, giving you 0.00001 performance, but the LF network has an issue?

I think Victor will make an oscillator for you in any frequency you desire.

If you run his oscillators off of batteries, then the - out is floating, so you can just hook it up directly to any balanced input, but even so, I don't think it's generally a problem to ground the - input on balanced systems, is it?