Why do my Kicad drill holes print so small?

[Jidis]

Hopefully this is a simple one for Kicad vets. I'm just getting used to it and transitioning from Eagle.

It looks as if some setting is forcing all of my pad holes to print at some tiny sub-mm size, though they look fine on screen. This is for default pads in modules, and ones I have manually altered. Even my mounting holes, which are set to something ridiculous like a 3mm hole are affected. Outside diameter of everything seems OK, and other than adding my own list of available trace widths, I think most of that stuff should still be at the defaults, so I'd think other people would be hitting it, but my searches haven't found a solution.

I'm running the 2013-5-31 BZR 4019 stable build of PCBNew

-Thanks!

 

[Jidis]

Fixed. 

Just broke down and updated to the 2013-9-28 build and noticed a pref in my print page was set for "small mark", rather than "real drill" size. I don't know if that previous build was showing the wrong setting, but I remember looking at it and don't think I had changed it.

The build I was running was quite solid. My brief first attempt at Kicad was this newer one and it crashed a few times, but I foolishly ran the exe's from their folder without installing anything else (it was probably missing some stuff).

George

 

[gemini86]

Glad you got that figured out...

I love kicad and use it a ton. If you ever need any help with something weird like that again, shoot me a pm.

 

[Jidis]

Definitely will do, and much thanks for the offer. 

Yeah, I'm really stoked about switching and have been quickly trying to find out how to do the main stuff I need. Looks good so far, and will be better once I've memorized my main moves (or got key commands set up?). It's already looking more intuitive than Eagle there. Eagle had some functions that were so weird, I had to go back and Google them almost every time I used them to remember the procedures.

One thing I'm going to try not to get my hopes up on are the bitmap2component related features. I'd really like to see something where you can import a decent scan of an existing PCB, and go around and place components,traces,etc. to match it (or just the screw holes and panel parts if you're replacing the circuitry). I've done that the hard way on several occasions now, where I had my pictures either on screen or paper, and had to glance back and forth at the layout I was building and keep checking distances with a caliper. Having the scale size picture behind you would make it a cinch, ideally if you even had some sort of opacity or brightness type controls to make it less obtrusive while you do the layout. I'll gladly settle for 1:1 scale import of a relatively clear picture though. Looks like Kicad's may be aimed more at small artwork and logos (things which you actually plan to etch into the copper), but if I learn to set the prefs right, I may still be able to use it for that.

Need to learn my way around the module creation process too. I've been changing parts in the board file with that mod edit thing, but would like to start building some libraries and learning how to move parts around in them. It looks like some of the converted Eagle library stuff I downloaded may not be showing up at the proper dimensions, so I'll probably be doing some edits at least.

Take Care

 

[ramshackles]

I use KiCAD and I think in general it is pretty great. Very intuitive.

There are a few quirks and a few things I wish could happen (maybe they do, but I don't know?)

- The possibility to save board outlines as a template (I mean the pcbedges?) It frustrates me to have to draw a eurocard every time, and thats just a simple rectangle!
- I wish you could just draw a rectangle rather than having to draw each edge...

- Is there some way to add new nets in pcbnew? Some times you want to add in an alternative component (e.g. putting in an IC opamp possibility in the discrete opamp footprint), that you don't really want to have to draw on the schematic (As it is too simple/make your schemo look messy) but you can't draw tracks between pads as the pads don't have a net (pcbnew wont let the tracks end on a pad without a net), but you can't add a new net to the pad (unless you manually edit the actual netlist file, which is a pain)


Anyway, sorry for hijacking the thread...

 

[Jidis]

- I wish you could just draw a rectangle rather than having to draw each edge...

- Is there some way to add new nets in pcbnew?

Anyway, sorry for hijacking the thread...

I guess it's not really hijacked since I got my drill holes fixed though. 

I agree on both of those points. In fact, in the little time I've used it, I've already cursed that first one a couple times. When my layout footprint starts getting smaller or larger from moving parts around, I end up having to drag one of the edges out or in just a little, then of course you have a gap, since it's just four separate lines. Then when I have to go back and redraw it, I have to draw over the originals to make sure I'm at the correct spot. Would be much easier to just grab a side and pull, while keeping all the other edges in place like in Eagle.

That "no nets in Pcbnew" one is a biggie. I had looked for ways to do that, and figured I just hadn't found it yet. I was OK jumping back to eeschema in the couple I've done, as it was just some pinheader junk, but many times I work totally from the board app (usually for that cloning stuff I mentioned in the last post). Not only would it be nice to add connections in Pcbnew, but I was surprised that Eagle was only able to create brd files from schematics, and not the other way around. I know these apps can't be expected to group the parts and nets the way a real schematic would be laid out, but you'd think that once they know the pin connections in the PCB, they could at least show them in the other (schematic) form as a mess of airwires. Then, if you could manually delete some "redundant" ones, you might be able to get an idea of where stuff was going in the circuit and make some sense out of someone else's layout. I've always been impressed that guys could do that without the aid of a program or schematic.

Minor visual gripe- I'm not digging the button thing (yet). Some of these icons don't look too obvious to me and I have to wait for the tooltip thing to appear. It would be awesome if you could customize them. I'd even settle for abbreviated name text or something other than these pictures. I'm also used to using a white background in both schematic and PCB in Eagle, but I may just be a weirdo. Doesn't look like Pcbnew can do that.

All this stuff is easily overshadowed by the fact that it's free. I'm way way happy with it overall.

George

 

[gemini86]

Definitely will do, and much thanks for the offer. 

Yeah, I'm really stoked about switching and have been quickly trying to find out how to do the main stuff I need. Looks good so far, and will be better once I've memorized my main moves (or got key commands set up?). It's already looking more intuitive than Eagle there. Eagle had some functions that were so weird, I had to go back and Google them almost every time I used them to remember the procedures.

One thing I'm going to try not to get my hopes up on are the bitmap2component related features. I'd really like to see something where you can import a decent scan of an existing PCB, and go around and place components,traces,etc. to match it (or just the screw holes and panel parts if you're replacing the circuitry). I've done that the hard way on several occasions now, where I had my pictures either on screen or paper, and had to glance back and forth at the layout I was building and keep checking distances with a caliper. Having the scale size picture behind you would make it a cinch, ideally if you even had some sort of opacity or brightness type controls to make it less obtrusive while you do the layout. I'll gladly settle for 1:1 scale import of a relatively clear picture though. Looks like Kicad's may be aimed more at small artwork and logos (things which you actually plan to etch into the copper), but if I learn to set the prefs right, I may still be able to use it for that.

Need to learn my way around the module creation process too. I've been changing parts in the board file with that mod edit thing, but would like to start building some libraries and learning how to move parts around in them. It looks like some of the converted Eagle library stuff I downloaded may not be showing up at the proper dimensions, so I'll probably be doing some edits at least.

Take Care

What I do here is use a program I downloaded, can't remember the name now, I'm on a work pc. It let's you make the active window transparent and locks it in place, so you're free to use it as an overlay to trace in kicad. You do have to get the scaling right, though. I usually line up something universal, like a dip8 ic or something with a standard pin spacing.

I use KiCAD and I think in general it is pretty great. Very intuitive.

There are a few quirks and a few things I wish could happen (maybe they do, but I don't know?)

- The possibility to save board outlines as a template (I mean the pcbedges?) It frustrates me to have to draw a eurocard every time, and thats just a simple rectangle!
- I wish you could just draw a rectangle rather than having to draw each edge...

- Is there some way to add new nets in pcbnew? Some times you want to add in an alternative component (e.g. putting in an IC opamp possibility in the discrete opamp footprint), that you don't really want to have to draw on the schematic (As it is too simple/make your schemo look messy) but you can't draw tracks between pads as the pads don't have a net (pcbnew wont let the tracks end on a pad without a net), but you can't add a new net to the pad (unless you manually edit the actual netlist file, which is a pain)


Anyway, sorry for hijacking the thread...

One thing you could do is save your eurocard outline to a template, then when you've finished your schematic and take it over to pcbnew, use the "append" option to add in the eurocard template you saved earlier. Then you can start your layout within the eurocard outlines.

Adding nets in pcb new is not possible, I don't think. I run into the same problem there. I have to add other symbols footprints to the schematic that I don't really want there. One way to make it look cleaner is to use the net label function to label each net on the opamp, then you can place your second opamp symbol somewhere off to the side with the appropriate net labels attached.

 

[Jidis]

What I do here is use a program I downloaded, can't remember the name now, I'm on a work pc. It let's you make the active window transparent and locks it in place, so you're free to use it as an overlay to trace in kicad.

Man, that's crazy! I hadn't heard of that one. Please let me know what it is when you get a chance.

On the downside, I guess with no way to build PCBs in Kicad without a schematic, that whole dream of cloning a layout gets blasted out of the sky anyhow, but maybe I can use it in something else. My current method is not only cumbersome, but there's also the occasional pad or part that's off by a little. Having an overlay would make it much more precise.

Take Care

 

[Andy Peters]

- Is there some way to add new nets in pcbnew? Some times you want to add in an alternative component (e.g. putting in an IC opamp possibility in the discrete opamp footprint), that you don't really want to have to draw on the schematic (As it is too simple/make your schemo look messy) but you can't draw tracks between pads as the pads don't have a net (pcbnew wont let the tracks end on a pad without a net), but you can't add a new net to the pad (unless you manually edit the actual netlist file, which is a pain)

I assume that by this you mean not creating a schematic in the first place?

Because the last thing you want to do is to modify the PCB netlist and then have a schematic which doesn't match the board.

I know, I know, sometimes you just want a small hack.

-a

 

[gemini86]

Man, that's crazy! I hadn't heard of that one. Please let me know what it is when you get a chance.

On the downside, I guess with no way to build PCBs in Kicad without a schematic, that whole dream of cloning a layout gets blasted out of the sky anyhow, but maybe I can use it in something else. My current method is not only cumbersome, but there's also the occasional pad or part that's off by a little. Having an overlay would make it much more precise.

Take Care

If you're just trying to duplicate a PCB, may be better to just do it in photoshop/illustrator type thing. If you're trying to generate gerber files, kicad is the way to go, but then you need to build a working schematic. Of course, having a schematic is always needed at some point, so why not go ahead and trace it out?

 

[Jidis]

If you're just trying to duplicate a PCB, may be better to just do it in photoshop/illustrator type thing.

Well, for one I'd like nice clean new traces and pads to work with. I did what you're suggesting recently and even found a way to get a fairly nice copy by using color thresholds on my scan, but there was still a lot of slop working with a "de-populated" old board. I had to go around and paste clean copies of pads in a bunch of spots and touch different parts up. Also, with a true layout, I'd be able to move things around and add stuff.

Of course, having a schematic is always needed at some point, so why not go ahead and trace it out?

I guess because I don't know what the heck I'm doing.  ;D

Seriously though, I'm not yet at a point where I can identify many component's jobs in a raw PCB layout like that with no schematic, especially when some have been moved to odd locations to fit the layout.

Because the last thing you want to do is to modify the PCB netlist and then have a schematic which doesn't match the board.

I know, I know, sometimes you just want a small hack.

Not sure what Ramshackles needs, but as a for instance here, on my last board I wanted the option of later inserting some diodes and stuff between the regulator ground pins and ground. I added a 2-pin header in place of a wire, but it's probably just going to stay jumped closed. There was really no need to clutter up the schematic with something confusing like that. Same with the mounting holes and extra pads I use for via jumpers. Also, on the cloning and small boards, I'd almost be OK with Pcbnew running in a "stand alone mode" where you had *no* link to a schematic,etc.

George

 

[gemini86]

The app that I use is this:

http://www.mobzystems.com/Tools/SeeThroughWindows.aspx

It just runs in the background andI've se the hotkey to ctrl+shift+z to set the active window to 50% transparency and locked in place. Works like a charm.

Same with the mounting holes and extra pads I use for via jumpers. Also, on the cloning and small boards, I'd almost be OK with Pcbnew running in a "stand alone mode" where you had *no* link to a schematic,etc.

George

The trick I've learned with getting around having to add jumpers to the schematic is to set the via pad and drill diameter to the same as all my other pads. Then I can use the PG_UP/PG_DN keys to quickly add a via and switch to the other copper layer and use the "top" copper layer as my "jumper" layer. Then I can go back and mark where jumpers are on the silk screen layer.

 

[Jidis]

The app that I use is this:

Got it  -thanks!

I'll remember the via thing too. this recent board was simple and just had a single jumper wire (lucky me).

Damn, I wish you could add parts in pcbnew now though. I'd like to move to Kicad 100% and really get to know some of it.

George

 

[gemini86]

You can add parts, but all the pads will have no net assignment.

BUT... you can change each pad to the net you want by editing the individual pad. Right under pad number is an option for 'Net Name'

 

[ramshackles]

You can go direct into the net file, which is just a text file and add nets,
but it is fairly confusing...

At the moment, I tend to add everything in Schema and let that schematic be a mess. I draw the 'actual' schematic (for reference/documentation/whatever) by hand.

It is still a pain when all you want to do is stick another header on or whatever...

 

[Jidis]

You can add parts, but all the pads will have no net assignment.

Yeah, I was playing around last night trying to figure out what the rules were on that stuff, and I swear I had a pcb which was actually letting me draw new traces between parts. I was too tired then, and can't figure out now how I did it. I've tried creating a new pcb with no schematic, and tried starting from a schematic, with all the parts I would need, but no nets or wires, then bouncing over to Pcbnew. None of it works, and it just erases the trace right after I draw it (if it gets that far). If anybody knows what I'm skipping, please let me know. I'll keep trying anyhow.

Also, how do you get those custom track widths in global design rules to stay in the program from project to project (assuming you can)?

Thanks!

PS- I'm noticing eeschema does have a tendency to allow me to draw wires which look as if they connect to pins in the schematic, but they miss by a tiny bit (like Eagle). May need to play with the grid or something unless there's a specific pref. I'm also not into the fact that they don't stretch and stay connected when you move parts in the schematic (wish it was more like Eagle there).

 

[gemini86]

you absolutely have to have nets to use pcbnew. It won't let you connect anything because there are no nets assigned. OR, it will let you connect everything with no net assigned to everything else with no net assigned. The software builds a net file that essentially says IC3, pin4 is connected to R5 pin2, R7 pin1...etc. So it won't let you connect anything together because there's no net file with connections made.

Make sure that snap to grid is enabled and that the grid is large enough to be obvious.

 

[Jidis]

OR, it will let you connect everything with no net assigned to everything else with no net assigned.

That's the part I was looking to do, and believe I did last night, but don't know the procedure. Doing that would be enough to do the board cloning thing I needed (along with that "See Through Windows" thing).

Thanks

 

[Jidis]

I give up on running traces with no airwires for now. Don't think I was tired enough last night to have imagined it, but I sure as heck can't repro it tonight, and I think I've tried every sequence.

If anybody knows the exact conditions under which you can do that in Pcbnew, please let me know.

Thanks!

 

[keefaz]

In pcbnew : Preferences > general turn DRC off

Now you should be able to connect pads without netlist