Why no cathode Resistor?

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hodad

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So. I'm drawing out a schemo on an old film sound squawkbox, & I find that the 12ax7 that I guess you'd call the preamp section, has no Rk on either cathode.
I looked at the datasheet on the ax7, & it looks like this is not an unexpected choice, but what's the payoff? Since the plates are at pretty low voltages (18 and 62 volts), I'm thinking maybe you're getting more gain with less voltage. Since the amp has serious distortion & lots of hiss, I'm thinking maybe that's the tradeoff for the higher gain.

Am I thinking right here?
 
look at the grid resistor, I mean f it´s very high, or if it has a resistor at all... It´s probably a grid leak stage...
 
The more important component to look for to determine whether it's grid-leak biased or not is an input capacitor. Most *first preamp stages have a 1M resistor from the grid to ground that essentially sets the input impedence of the stage.

Grid-leak bias scheme is common to 40's and 50's CHEAP amplifiers. Early small TV front and Wide Panel Tweed Fenders used this as the method of biasing the first stage an amplifier. Bias voltage is derived through the voltage drop across the grid resistor which is discharging the input capacitor. Bias varies with signal level, and thus, has a certain compression feeling, more so than push-pull, cathode biased output stages. Some people like this, others don't.
 
> Bias voltage is derived through the voltage drop across the grid resistor which is discharging the input capacitor.

Yes, at "high" signal levels, the cap and grid-diode rectify the signal peak and create enough bias to stay out of sustained clipping, though gain goes down.

At no-signal and small-signal, there is another effect. It is not well documented, but was widely used. We assume that grid current is zero, or small-but-unknown; this is not really true. For reasonable plate voltage and cathode curent, some cathode-plate electrons accidentally strike the grid. If you put a resistor grid to cathode, the grid goes negative. If you observe the spec-sheet rating, typically 1 Meg Max, this voltage is negligible. If you wildly exceed it, with 10Meg or 20Meg, you get several tenths of a volt negative grid bias. If your source is AC-coupled and does not exceed a few tenths of a volt, amplification is high and linear. For best results, use a hi-Mu tube and a large plate resistor; this tends to stabilize plate current (and by implication, plate voltage and grid voltage and max signal level).

A particular advantage is no cathode cap, which was problematic when electrolytics were leaky and short-lived. You do generally need a film grid cap, and it must be much bigger than you'd think for 22Meg, but it can be as low a voltage as you can buy.

Fisher and others did this as the 2nd stage of a NFB phono preamp. Signal level there (inside the NFB loop) is 20mV-40mV tops, and this avoids the LF zero of a cathode cap and a bit of bulk in a tight layout.

Many PA amps did it this way because in normal PA amp use (before Rock and before wide use of hot Condensers) the mike levels never got near a tenth volt.

It was common on early guitar amps because early-1950s pickups and playing styles didn't exceed a few tenths of a volt peak, and this trick does tend to give the ab-max gain the tube is capable of.

I think it fell out of favor in late-1950s guitar amps because hotter pickups and harder playing styles gave levels higher than grid-leak can handle. Alnico, hum-bucker, the transition from brass/sax bands to guitar bands.

It stayed in favor in the CHEAP models, like KAY, and in many home phonographs, right to the end of tubes.

> plates are at pretty low voltages (18 and 62 volts)

That does not sound right. Assuming there is +250V in the box, you expect plates to sit above 50V. Check for leaky grid/plate coupling and B+ de-coupling caps. Replace the tube. Check for drifted resistors.
 
Here's the schematic as best I can determine right now:

http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k473/trunkline/IMG_2253.jpg

There's no input cap on the mag input, though there is on the opto input(the opto input also has a [variable] amt. of dc on it, for reasons I don't quite fathom.)

Plate voltages on the 12ax7 don't seem to be low due to drifting resistors or a bad tube--seems to be the design. Maybe I'm missing something.
 
[quote author="hodad"]There's no input cap on the mag input[/quote]

There ought to be, imo. 4.7M is definitely grid-leak-bias territory, and about any mag input source will just short it out. Maybe in original use there was a cap coming out of said source---a crazy thing to do, but people do crazy things.
 
> Here's the schematic as best I can determine right now:

There must be an output transformer?

Surely 6094, not 6095?

The 12AX7 voltages are impossible. My first thought is that the 0.005u cap is leaking all to heck.

Pull the 12AX7. Both plates should shoot up to 290V. Both grid voltages (not noted on your sheet) should be dang near zero. I bet V1a plate stays low, and V1b grid is several volts high. Cut one leg of the 0.005u. If now you get proper voltages, replace that cap.

It is supposed to be nasty. The second coupling network low-cuts at ~~400Hz, no ballz at all, but rapid recovery from overload. The 0.01u at power tube plate suggests 3KC high-cut. The two 0.0068u caps on power screen suggest a ~~6dB boost above 1KC (and I have never seen that trick before). It's not nice, but it may be very intelligible.

Gain is 30*50*15 or 22,000 to the 6V6/6094 grid, which needs 13V drive, so if some fool turns the gain pot full-up the input sensitivity for ~~4 Watts out is 0.6mV. 84dB SPL at a dynamic mike through this gain will give 94dB SPL 4 feet from any speech loudspeaker. I guess it could be a PA system for a large room; just as likely you whisper in the booth and it shouts in the studio.
 
Wes is right, this is just cheap design. Those cathode rsisitors on the pre amp tubes are just not necesary, especially for that era and those needs. Hi-fi was not a priority: slap out a product. and yes, your voltages indicate an issue. Hope you got some good parts out of it.
My $.02
 
The tube is definitely not 6094. It's a 6095, which I gather is fairly close to a 6aq5--I actually haven't located a datasheet yet.

I'll try piddling with PRR's suggestions this evening & see what I can figure out.

& there is an output xformer--a little triad I think--I just ran out of paper.

& if I wasn't clear, this is a film sound reader, so I'm guessing it's looking for very low level inputs.
 
[quote author="PRR"]>
Pull the 12AX7. Both plates should shoot up to 290V. Both grid voltages (not noted on your sheet) should be dang near zero. I bet V1a plate stays low, and V1b grid is several volts high. Cut one leg of the 0.005u. If now you get proper voltages, replace that cap.
.[/quote]

I pulled the ax7. Plates shot up. Both grids were at 0V. I measured grid volts on v1a(with tube installed)--I got about .01V. When I switch to the optical input (which has a 200pf cap on it for a more traditional grid leak) the grid voltage climbs to about 0.5.

The thing sounds massively distorted with a guitar plugged in. The opto in is much tamer, but not as cool. It oscillates (or generates a steady tone for some other reason) when it's turned way up. But it's plenty loud & nasty before that happens.

The thing that's bugging me most about the sound is a sort of ghosty distortion that goes on after the note decays. It does this even at relatively low volumes, which makes me think it's in or around the 12AX7.
 
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