Yamaha mixing consoles (DM2000, DM1000, 02R96, 01V96, ...) color finish

[tadejm]

Hello!

A bit of a weird question, I don't know if it belongs in this thread...
Has anyone ever dealt with "retouching" front panels of Yamaha mixing consoles? I mean DM2000, DM1000, 02R96, ...
I am restoring an older one and I would like to know which colour ("blue-grey") is the original used? Maybe according to the RAL scale?

With a colleague who has a car body shop, we tried to mix according to the sample, but we didn't hit the mark exactly...

TNX!

 

[Whoops]

With a colleague who has a car body shop, we tried to mix according to the sample, but we didn't hit the mark exactly...

Car body shops and Car paint shops have a sort of machine where they scan a color by pointing an handheld photo scanner to the paint and it gives the code for that color.

That's how I got the color code for my car's paint.

You should try that out, go to a Car Paint shop that has one of those machines

 

[tadejm]

Car body shops and Car paint shops have a sort of machine where they scan a color by pointing an handheld photo scanner to the paint and it gives the code for that color.

That's how I got the color code for my car's paint.

You should try that out, go to a Car Paint shop that has one of those machines

Thanks, Whoops!

Like I said, I was at a friend's workshop who has a "paint mixing machine" and is a car painter. He scanned with "photo scanner" and then he mixed the colors based on the scan. The original "scanned" was a little too silver, then he did another one, it's too greenish, then another one, it's a little too dark... :/ That's why I'm asking if anyone knows the exact code, if anyone has done this before

 

[Whoops]

That's why I'm asking if anyone knows the exact code, if anyone has done this before

Mate you have to understand that those digital consoles are very old, they're dinosaurs,
and what that means in terms of paint is that even if you got the original code it would not match the colour of your console because that paint is 24 years old now so the paint changed over the years.
New paint with the original color code will not match it.

That's why your best and only option is scanning in a professional car paint shop,
I have to be honest that if you friend was not able to match the color it's because he is not very good at it, I'm sorry but that's the honest truth.
I went many times to a pro car paint shop in my city and they are always able to match the color of the item pretty well, so well that you don't notice the re-touch

 

[tadejm]

Mate you have to understand that those digital consoles are very old, they're dinosaurs,
and what that means in terms of paint is that even if you got the original code it would not match the colour of your console because that paint is 24 years old now so the paint changed over the years.
New paint with the original color code will not match it.

That's why your best and only option is scanning in a professional car paint shop,
I have to be honest that if you friend was not able to match the color it's because he is not very good at it, I'm sorry but that's the honest truth.
I went many times to a pro car paint shop in my city and they are always able to match the color of the item pretty well, so well that you don't notice the re-touch

Yes, I know, but these dinosaurs still work superbly and I can't find (and don't even need) a modern replacement
As for my colleague, I thought about what you say... maybe I should find someone else who might be better...

 

[Whoops]

Yes, I know, but these dinosaurs still work superbly and I can't find (and don't even need) a modern replacement

There's million modern replacements for those crappy mixers that are 50x times better,
but that was not the discussion and I was not addressing my opinion on the mixers, I was talking in terms of the paint, and the fact that it doesn't mater if you get the original color code or not because the paint on those mixers after 20 or 25 years changed enough to not match the original color, and as you've said you wanted to paint "retouch" the pannels then you need to match the actual present day aged paint and not the original color code.

 

[tadejm]

There's million modern replacements for those crappy mixers that are 50x times better,
but that was not the discussion and I was not addressing my opinion on the mixers, I was talking in terms of the paint, and the fact that it doesn't mater if you get the original color code or not because the paint on those mixers after 20 or 25 years changed enough to not match the original color, and as you've said you wanted to paint "retouch" the pannels then you need to match the actual present day aged paint and not the original color code.

And which mixers are 50x better? Just to know your opinion TNX

 

[Whoops]

And which mixers are 50x better? Just to know your opinion TNX

Hi mate,
those very old Yamaha digital mixers were the beginning of the compact digital mixers, AD and DA converter technology was not great at the time, it was very primitive, as it was clocking, DSP, internal processing, summing and effects. The analog circuitry was not great also as those mixer were made to have a very competitive (budget) compared to other options at the time.
They were useful for sure back then when there weren't a lot of options in terms of digital mixers, and of course digital mixers also offered to advantages over an analog setup, but sound was never a strong point of any of those mixers, and you can also join there the LS9 and the M7CL.

Actually all those Yamaha mixers from the late 90s and early 00s, were the culprits for the bad reputation Digital Mixers had until around 2010 when compared to analogue setups.

AD and DA converter technology, clocking, DSP and internal processing had outstanding developments and improvements in the last 25 years,
it's very far from that ancient Digital technology.
So anything at the present is better than any of those mixers, anything really.

And that's the reason that I don't know and never seen any Professional sound engineer using any of those Yamaha mixers in 2024,
and their memories of using them, like myself, are not great.

My 2 cents, now let's go back to paint because that's the goal of this thread and helping you getting paint was the only reason I wrote in this thread

 

[tadejm]

You have an interesting thinking Not to go too long off topic, but I have to write a few words...

I know the history, don't worry. I've been in production since 95, and I've had most of the equipment that's been around during these years, I know what the differences are and what the advantages are. I'm not going to convince the convinced

After all, what is important is what enables a person to achieve a top result. Doesn't matter if it's Behringer or SSL.
Among other things, DM2000 allows me to do that. And this mixing desk is a piece of equipment that I will probably never replace. With a reason

Have a nice day!

 

[Whoops]

Mate,
I couldn't care less about what you use, use whatever you like, I didn't criticize anyone's choices
I just wanted to help you with the paint.

have fun

 

[aurt]

You have an interesting thinking Not to go too long off topic, but I have to write a few words...

I know the history, don't worry. I've been in production since 95, and I've had most of the equipment that's been around during these years, I know what the differences are and what the advantages are. I'm not going to convince the convinced

After all, what is important is what enables a person to achieve a top result. Doesn't matter if it's Behringer or SSL.
Among other things, DM2000 allows me to do that. And this mixing desk is a piece of equipment that I will probably never replace. With a reason

Have a nice day!

The DM2ks were a pretty serious desk at the time. They were in a different division of Yamaha's hierarchy than the lesser desks. You dealt with Yamaha Pro for support. I specced a half dozen of them for a place I worked at at the time, and wound up taking a couple, pre install, to go do a live recording gig for an industry event. Sadly, the FOH guys screwed their end up badly enough that it was commented on regularly at the lectern, and nuked any chance at marketing the event. I was with the recording and video crew, and spent a lot of time wincing. I could go on, but...

I had never worked on one in anger, and spent little time familiarizing myself with them before packing them up for the gig, and it was not a problem. The interface is a bit archaic by modern standards, but not troublesome. Sonically they are very Yamaha. Useful and neutral, perhaps a bit boring, but extremely flexible. I got very good sounds quickly and had zero troubles during the show. For a somewhat complex mixed analog and digital setup in the early aughts that's saying something. I did a bunch of stuff on them later in the rooms and it sounded great.

In the several years keeping up the six rooms with them, I came to like them. They ain't a Neve, but that's ok. They are a very useful desk. As I say, they were in a separate division at Yamaha. They considered them a pro desk. They were not cheap, either. I want to say they were in the 20k range, but there could be memory drain there. I think the 02R96 was about 2k-ish at the time, so, big difference.

My only bitch about them was that I couldn't assign the graphic EQs to the monitoring path, which was half the reason I specced them in the first place. They were installed in small control rooms that had serious problems around 125Hz., and needed a bunch of help elsewhere. I found a workaround, but it wasn't great.

Sorry, I'm going to be little to no help with the paint, but good on ya for keeping one alive and useful. They're decent desks. And I'm a snob.

 

[RoadrunnerOZ]

I spent 5 years working in a Luxury Supercar paint and panel shop - started by doing audio with them for car shows and progressed to detailing, pickup and delivery, damage and paint condition analysis, pre-sale inspections etc and custom part fabrication for Ferrari, Maserati, Lamborghini, Aston Martin, Porsche, McLaren, Rolls Royce etc. All paint on other than new cars was done by using a paint analyser and not by code although the code was sometimes used as a reference start point. Even for the same model there were mix variants that you had to look up via the VIN. We used Glasurit (solvent based) and PPG (water based used in more modern European cars) and also vehicle specific paints if needed. The scan result would give a list of base colours and mix quantities for either type.
One thing about paint scanners is you need the surface to be very clean as ingrained dirt can throw a scan off. Secondly the scanner needs to be in proper contact with the surface so no external light can get into the scan head. If the paint has thickness difference due to wear you need to find a scan point that is uniform and not worn. Paint is translucent not opaque so any reflections back through the paint of the metal behind which may be close in colour can give false readings through worn thin paint.
A paint code is virtually useless for old paint as it yellows through time - the pigment and metal particles in metallic paint stay pretty constant but the clear plastic or resin binders and fillers discolour.
If you can get a decent scan any paint technician can alter the blend knowing which colour bases to add to achieve a match. You need to use a sprayout card to hold against the job to see what it looks like when the paint on the card is dry - no good comparing wet paint to the job as paint changes color as it dries. Also base coat will not give a good idea without the clearcoat on top as the base is flat - you can mix a satin clear with the base coat to do touchups after you get the colour right. All sprayout cards had the base and clear coats before drying and comparison in the sun or using a colour corrected light.
For solid colors it’s fairly easy to match but with metallics you need the right grade (size) of metal particle content or the paint will never match.
The DM2000 colour looks like a variant of Paynes Grey or Paynes Blue Grey - can’t remember if it’s metallic or not.
Suggestion would be that if you are just wanting to brush-touch chips and scratches - not a total repaint - and the paint is solid colour and not metallic then buy some satin finish acrylics from an art store and try mixing your own. White, Cobalt Blue, Navy Blue, Grey, Black are good starters - they’re only a few bucks a tube - and some fine artists brushes. The trick is to clean the surface and then mix the final colour with a tiny amount of acrylic thinners or water. Pick up a drop on the tip of a fine brush and fill the chip or scratch without going over the edges. It will shrink as it dries and you can top up until the chip is filled to level.
I used to do this on stone chips with matched base coat mixed with clear on every car that left the shop - each car was buffed, polished and brush-touched before final inspection for delivery.

 

[RoadrunnerOZ]

Different blacks have different undertones - Ivory has brown (almost reddish) undertone, Lamp Black has blue undertone, Mars black is neutral. Titanium white is the best choice for white as it’s opaque. If the paint has yellowed with age, which you won’t see, then you may need to add a fractional quantity of yellow to tint the blue/grey. Paynes Grey in acrylics is quite blue and may be a good place to start. To match the yellowing that occurs Chrome Yellow or Yellow Ochre. You can also get silver metallic.
These names are all artist colours and don’t really relate to automotive paints

 

[tadejm]

Thank you very much, @RoadrunnerOZ, you helped me a lot!!

 

[RoadrunnerOZ]

Let us know if you get a match. Is the paint metallic or solid colour?

 

[tadejm]

The DM2ks were a pretty serious desk at the time. They were in a different division of Yamaha's hierarchy than the lesser desks. You dealt with Yamaha Pro for support. I specced a half dozen of them for a place I worked at at the time, and wound up taking a couple, pre install, to go do a live recording gig for an industry event. Sadly, the FOH guys screwed their end up badly enough that it was commented on regularly at the lectern, and nuked any chance at marketing the event. I was with the recording and video crew, and spent a lot of time wincing. I could go on, but...

I had never worked on one in anger, and spent little time familiarizing myself with them before packing them up for the gig, and it was not a problem. The interface is a bit archaic by modern standards, but not troublesome. Sonically they are very Yamaha. Useful and neutral, perhaps a bit boring, but extremely flexible. I got very good sounds quickly and had zero troubles during the show. For a somewhat complex mixed analog and digital setup in the early aughts that's saying something. I did a bunch of stuff on them later in the rooms and it sounded great.

In the several years keeping up the six rooms with them, I came to like them. They ain't a Neve, but that's ok. They are a very useful desk. As I say, they were in a separate division at Yamaha. They considered them a pro desk. They were not cheap, either. I want to say they were in the 20k range, but there could be memory drain there. I think the 02R96 was about 2k-ish at the time, so, big difference.

My only bitch about them was that I couldn't assign the graphic EQs to the monitoring path, which was half the reason I specced them in the first place. They were installed in small control rooms that had serious problems around 125Hz., and needed a bunch of help elsewhere. I found a workaround, but it wasn't great.

Sorry, I'm going to be little to no help with the paint, but good on ya for keeping one alive and useful. They're decent desks. And I'm a snob.

Yes, I know, interface from e.g. The Behringer Wing (which is quite a standard for LIVE events here) is more modern, but less logical to me as a Yamaha user ) but the console works very OK. And I use it for live events!

I can't imagine myself in the studio without the flexibility of the DM2000, it has everything I need, and I achieve top results with it.
We can say it's a matter of habit. Unfortunately, there is no comparable modern product on the market. You can get analog mixing console or digital controllers (for quite high prices). But there is no digital table with excellent remote support, top-quality and modern converters and preamps. Or I just don't know that exists.

 

[tadejm]

Let us know if you get a match. Is the paint metallic or solid colour?

metallic, but I THINK it is unvarnished at the end (with transparent matte varnish). That's why on parts where you mainly use your hands and fingers, the paint begins to peel off... :/

 

[RoadrunnerOZ]

metallic, but I THINK it is unvarnished at the end (with transparent matte varnish). That's why on parts where you mainly use your hands and fingers, the paint begins to peel off... :/

I think it’s satin not matte - there’s a big difference as matte (or flat) shows finger marks very easily whereas satin looks almost matte but doesn’t show oil from fingerprints. Likely being a solvent based acrylic (or an enamel paint on older gear) to handle wear and tear. In most audio gear from what I’ve seen of how the paint wears, they don’t use a flat base with clear coat finish (you can get gloss, semi-gloss, satin or matte/flat in clear coat finish) - this type of process is usually in automotive areas. Machinery paint used to be all enamel but has shifted to solvent based, single stage, single pack or 2 pack acrylic or resin based paints for ease of application and speed of production - multi stage painting takes a fair amount of drying time between coats as well - you need at least 2 coats of colour base before at least 2 coats of clear.
All in one single stage paints work well for equipment chassis as the single span surface area is small, unlike a car panel, and most are not high gloss anyway.
Satin, semi-gloss or matte finish single stage paints (and also clear coats) simply contain “flatting agents” to provide the appropriate reflective index and are tough by themselves - unlike base coat/clear coat combination where the base is “flat”, not surface durable, blemishes and damages easily, contains no hardeners or strengtheners but only carries the colour and binds well to the primer underneath and the clear on top, which is the protective surface that impregnates and strengthens the base.
We did a lot of AMG Mercedes in flat - basically the clear coat (which starts out gloss) has a lot of flatting agent in it. Nightmare to look after and special polishes required to stop the car getting shiny patches all over!!

You often see cars with the clear peeling off and a very dull base coat left behind - looks like skin peel after sunburn. If a paint wears through and does not expose a flat coat underneath - which looks totally different - then it’s not a multi-type coating process.
Paint peeling off gear where hands are in constant contact is usually due to the paint breaking down from the acidity in the oils of the fingertips or the primer coming away from the metal - this happens with steel and aluminium if salt gets under the paint it will oxidise the metal and the paint starts to peel can start with a tiny chip and spread.

 

[tadejm]

You often see cars with the clear peeling off and a very dull base coat left behind - looks like skin peel after sunburn. If a paint wears through and does not expose a flat coat underneath - which looks totally different - then it’s not a multi-type coating process.
Paint peeling off gear where hands are in constant contact is usually due to the paint breaking down from the acidity in the oils of the fingertips or the primer coming away from the metal - this happens with steel and aluminium if salt gets under the paint it will oxidise the metal and the paint starts to peel can start with a tiny chip and spread.

And that's exactly what starts to happen. First, a small fragments are made, which later fall off.
What would be the solution to prevent this from happening?
On my new mixing console, I covered certain parts with transparent film... It's not very aesthetic, but I don't know what to do.

 

[RoadrunnerOZ]

You could strip the console and spray the whole outer cabinet shell with a satin finish clear wheel paint - this stuff is really tough and prevents moisture incursion and damage from stone chips a road grit. You would need to roughen the surface with Mirlon before painting and wash with isopropyl to remove any grime or dust - as the paint is new you would only use the grey and finish with gold as from Mirka Mirlon:

• Red: Very Fine (360 grit), for primary sanding of new parts, old paint layers, and sanding of repairs before applying primer
• Black: Extra Fine (800 grit), for panel blending, paint prep, surface finishing in wood applications, solid surface fabrication and marine aftermarket
• Gray: Ultra Fine (1,500 grit), for enhancing mechanical (paint) adhesion and panel blending
• Gold: Micro Fine (2,500 grit), ideal for removing over-spray, dirt nibs, and lint fibers

Best not to use sandpaper as you may strip paint from edges - you only need to basically abrade the surface so the clear gets a good grip and the flexible pads get into any little dips in the surface. We used them in the shop for primer prep for base coat and base prep for clear and lint free cleaning cloths (available in any auto paint store) to wipe the surface down after spray wetting with alcohol. You need to test your paint first before using alcohol to make sure it doesn’t soften or dissolve it - try a small hidden spot and if colour comes off on the cloth don’t use it.
The wheel clear handles moisture and extreme heat from brakes and burning brake dust - like the stuff from VHT.