Analog Audio Pro....... my Passion...

Hello everyone I am an Italian electrical engineer.
I have a passion for uprofessionale and the analog.
I would build compressors, equalizers and another for my study.
are well equipped and for this I ask you if it's worth building clones of audio equipment.
in the sense that the sound at the end is similar to the original.
I would like to build farchild 670 ... and that's why I ask if it's worth it since it has some very high costs.
It sounds like the original? agrees that it is better hardware or a plug-in?
I ask you also to create a chain of mastering what I could build.
I mean eq and compressor.
thanks


Giuseppe

Hi

The answer to all your questions is 'yes'.

Cheers and good luck with it!

Alexc Hello and thank you for welcoming me and a lot of good news.
The problem I have with my mix is ​​sounding bass that is, the volume is low compared with commercial CD.
Do you think the 670 can solve the problem or is it better to buy such a Maselec MLA-2? .... Or other similar hardware ....
Then I would build an equalizer for mastering, which  do you recommend?
thanks

If your mixes are sounding with the bass not loud enough, I would recommend a plug-in, like a Loudness Maximiser or other multiband compression type.

A hardware compressor/limiter would also increase the apparent loudness by reducing the dynamic range of your mix, so yes that can work too. I have not personally used a genuine 670 so I can't comment.
or a Masalec for that matter!

I have built 670 style DIY units and find them to be useful in many situations but so far I have not yet built one of sufficient quality for mastering.

Mine have too much low frequency distortion and are not properly matched channels.

It takes a lot of skill to build a well matched mastering dynamics unit, so for critical usage, I would have to say buy rather than build. Especially if you can afford any commercial 670 style unit or a Masalec.

I do recommend DIY limiters for tracking. They work very well for this.

With EQ, a bit better DIY for mastering - there are vendors in the 'White Market' section that sell pcbs and kits that are capable, with careful building and component choice, of performance good enough for mastering. I am thinking of a dual Sontec EQ.

There is a world of opinion on all these matters and in the end, there is only one way to know if DIY is useful for you. But if you are even thinking about DIY 670 or mastering EQ, I assume you have done some research. Can be done certainly - but it is a journey for the committed.

There are many options 

Good luck with it all

Alex

I agree with Alex for the most of his answer, yet i would try to keep away from both the loudness maximizer (though if gently pushed in, might do a little good) and the multiband compressor unless you absolutely can't do without it.. but that's my way of mixing, which is my opinion alone. you might try boosting the low enda little bit with a good phase-lineair (!!) EQ if you don't want to touch the rest of the mix too much, but be careful with those, they can easily make a mix sound "off" imho.

as for the hardware, the 670 will be as good as the amount of time (and unavoidably $$$) you put in matching everything up, and as Alex said: complicated stuff. If you pull it off you'll have a machine worthwhile, but for mastering, you need near identical channels, and that will be a challenge

Just my 2 cents

Mark

Your mixed tracks should not be as loud as commercial CD's because the latter are mastered.
You should mix your tracks until you feel they sound right and not worry too much about the loudness.
Leave that to the mastering guy.
Unless you want to master your own tracks. In that case it would be advisable to stick to plugins. Unless you're willing to spend some serious money.

A relative cheap compressor that you could use on the mixbus would be the SSL bus compressor for example...

Hank Dussen said:

Unless you want to master your own tracks. In that case it would be advisable to stick to plugins. Unless you're willing to spend some serious money.

Click to expand...

....on a hardware digital limiter.

If the reason you are setting out to build analog DIY is to fix issues with bass levels in your mix, then I think you are doing it for the wrong reasons.

Try this:

Find a mix you really like that is "loud enough" for you.
Bring it, and your track, into your DAW.

Set the fader volume of the reference track to -6dB.
Leave yours at 0dB.

Now how do they compare? Better?
If you are happier then send your track to a mastering engineer.

Learning to mix more quietly was a revelation to me.
Just ensure your track "comparisons" are done fairly.

Sounds like you should spend more time working on your mixes.
A piece of DIY may be inspiring and add a sheen over a good mix, but it won't, by itself, correct a mix to be well balanced, carefully EQed or to even sound "better" necessarily.

my2c.

Im not trying to discourage you at all I think it's great, but better for you if you embark for the right reasons.

Thank you all for your valuable advice, however I intend to deepen the discussion in these terms:
I am a fan and I intend to devote myself to DIY audio do not mix to get the benefits but to experience being very expensive equipment that I could not buy.
Do I have professional audio analyzer so I could provide my metetre apparechiatura and experience for all users in the group.
As for the matering, I wish someone would make me the master of a piece with my DIY analog gear so that I can realize the potential of these machines.
Is anyone willing to be a master compressor and EQ DIY?

there would be very grateful

regards

dagosto said:

The problem I have with my mix is ​​sounding bass that is, the volume is low compared with commercial CD.

Click to expand...

If the bass -- by which one likely means "low end" -- is lower in level than a commercial CD, then look at what you're mixing, and how you're mixing it.

By this I mean: is that low end information available in the first place? Is an instrument playing anything in that range? No amount of EQ or compression can create something that doesn't exist.

If there ARE tracks with that low-end information, then perhaps those tracks need to be higher in the mix?

-a

Just like the sorry but I do not speak English well ... I expressed myself badly and noticed that you have misunderstood.
I repeat my question:
My mixes have low volume.
So I think it says low RMS  compared with commercial CDs.
I hope it is now clear

thanks

If anything a 670 will make the volume sound even lower, not higher. No modern mix you will listen to would be master limited through a 670 - you'll get louder perceived volume through an L2 plugin..
I still think your first task should be to send it to a mastering engineer and get their feedback.
DIY gear won't make your mixes better or even necessarily louder - that's a job for a dedicated engineer - if their feedback is "send it through a 670" then you have your answer, but I will say that this is unlikely.

Regardless definitely put up photos and take us through your build if/when you do decide to build something! And welcome to the forum!

etheory said:

If anything a 670 will make the volume sound even lower, not higher. No modern mix you will listen to would be master limited through a 670 - you'll get louder perceived volume through an L2 plugin..
I still think your first task should be to send it to a mastering engineer and get their feedback.
DIY gear won't make your mixes better or even necessarily louder - that's a job for a dedicated engineer - if their feedback is "send it through a 670" then you have your answer, but I will say that this is unlikely.

Regardless definitely put up photos and take us through your build if/when you do decide to build something! And welcome to the forum!

Click to expand...

1. I disagree with the first statement. A good well maintained 670 can do wonders for mastering, It's a vari-mu compressor. It also does m/s.  Look at the Manley Vari-mu often found in mastering studios. I am sure it is not there for decoration.  Manley is a successor to the Fairchild 670. Vari-mu's are often used in mastering. Now days you need to compress the mix, then mastering will compress it more and  to keep it from distorting will also ad a brick wall limiter on the end to keep it all as loud as possible without distorting in the digital world. The waves L2 is good as a last step. Check out the u-33 by old world audio, it's a great example of a vari-mu 670 vibe without the price tag.

2. if you just want louder mixes, then by a tc  electronics finalizer and use it. A well known mastering engineer told me it's a great box because it does what advertising says it does, makes you mixes louder.

3. I agree with send it to a mastering engineer. I am currently mixing an artist who thinks that mastering can be skipped if I put an eq and a compressor across the stereo buss. Well for the current project we talked the artist into getting the singles for the album mastered and the rest can be done how the artist likes, eq and compression across the stereo buss and no mastering. Well the mastering guy did such a good job that he will now master the entire album. Having a mastering engineer as a friend is priceless. Friend one so you can get advise.

4. Diy gear can do good and bad to your audio, proceed with caution.

Okay I understand that the master must be done in by a sound engineer.
If I wanted to buy the equipment that uses a sound engineer, what should I buy?
I could build them?
Obviously I know that we want to monitor PMC type or another .... but I mean ... for example GML hardware machines, Maselec ...
It 'obvious that mastering is not only volume .... I think I understand ..


thanks

dagosto said:

Alexc Hello and thank you for welcoming me and a lot of good news.
The problem I have with my mix is ​​sounding bass that is, the volume is low compared with commercial CD.
Do you think the 670 can solve the problem or is it better to buy such a Maselec MLA-2? .... Or other similar hardware ....
Then I would build an equalizer for mastering, which  do you recommend?
thanks

Click to expand...

I think you make a mistake here.
If you asked if a 670 is capable of giving you the sound of a 70's Motown or Abbey Road sound, I would say probably, although these sounds are not the result of one single piece of equipment, they are the conjunction of recording to tape, use of certain mics and mic'ing techniques, a whole analog chain, probably with a dose of vacuum tubes, the production techniques and whatever.
Now you ask how to make your mixes as loud as current commercial CD's. You must understand that these use a lot of digital processing that is geared towards the single goal of making things louder, and that no analog processing can approach (in terms of efficiency, I'm not talking about quality).
Basically, you're asking how to make your 1960's Ferrari 250 to perform like a modern 458, without electronic injection and ignition, without a servo-gearbox, without ABS.
I think you should start looking at multi-band compressors and brickwall limiters now.

Are you telling me that in a world where all production takes place in digital
Analogue machines have no more room in mastering studios?
Then you wonder why they are still produced and sold at high prices?
What do you do with them if the digital sounds better?
Imagine how such a eq gml 9500 costing 9700 usd is a waste of money ..
Maybe there's something I can not understand why .... I ask you to tell me what is used in a mastering studio mid-level ... because that's what I want to accomplish .. thanks

dagosto said:

Are you telling me that in a world where all production takes place in digital
Analogue machines have no more room in mastering studios?

Click to expand...

Don't jump too fast on conclusions. I didn't say that. I said that you want something that makes your CD's loud as commercial CD's, so you must use the tools that are used to make commercial CD's loud.

  Then you wonder why they are still produced and sold at high prices?

Click to expand...

Because not all CD's are mastered for "loud".

What do you do with them if the digital sounds better?

Click to expand...

I didn't say digital sounds better than analog, I just said digital tools are more appropriate than analog for making "loud".

Imagine how such a eq gml 9500 costing 9700 usd is a waste of money ...

Click to expand...

It's a matter of applications and point of view.

  I ask you to tell me what is used in a mastering studio mid-level ... because that's what I want to accomplish .. thanks

Click to expand...

Most mastering studios use a combo of analog and digital tools. A top-notch ME will probably use Maselec or GML analog, why not a 670, and Waves and Izotope digital processing. A mid-level studio cannot justify the cost of these, and will probably use less expensive gear and software; in fact they may well use a plug-in that emulates a 670, but I know that, if they want to master "loud", they will use some kind of digital multi-band compressor and brickwall limiter.

wow... talking about Lost in translation..
simple steps:
1. Set your goal (ie. Making your mix louder)
2. what do you need for that goal (stuff that makes it go louder)
3. figure out options AND THEIR COSTS (not completely unimportant): Plugin/Bought Hardware/DIY

If you are talking modern music that just has to go LOUD AS **** you might just find yourself downloading a 13MB file,
installing it on your computer and safe yourself the hassle, unless, and that's the most important part:

YOU LIKE TO BUILD STUFF!

Different Machines (and their emulations) are good for different goals... If it's loud you're after, the Fairchild might just not be the tool, but at some point in time, you might find it's uses.. Don't just build/buy because it's a Fairchild, build/buy what you need!

M

Hi dagosto!

I love my ssl compressor and I've used the Fair Child and in my experience it does not raise the level of low end, but actually might reduce it slightly.  When I was getting started mixing I had trouble isolating the bass frequencies to actually boost and would get too much of the wrong frequencies when I raised the bass level up.  A common eq move I see people doing on bass is to cut 200 hz on the bass guitar (for example) and then to boost 90hz.  200 hz tends to build up like crazy and when you turn up the bass it sounds flappy.

Any way just my thought.  Also, I famous person told me, if you're mixing R&B notch a lot of the 300 hz out of your tracks. 

Of course, I preface everything I said is meaningless because I haven't heard you're stuff.  But I'm sure it's awesome  Theses are just things I've noticed over the years.

A hardware compressor like the SSL combined with the night equalizer is a nice combo.

Another amazing trip.  Is to use multiple mix busses.  Run the Kick Snare and toms through a buss that doesn't get smashed at all, just slightly compressed.  Then run your guitars, piano, overheads and stuff through an SSL.  Then run the vocals through a separate buss.  Then take the 4 busses sum them together and lightly compress 2dB.

That is what a lot of big mixers do sometimes....  though I don't know anything.

bless!

greg

dagosto said:

Just like the sorry but I do not speak English well ... I expressed myself badly and noticed that you have misunderstood.
I repeat my question:
My mixes have low volume.
So I think it says low RMS  compared with commercial CDs.
I hope it is now clear

thanks

Click to expand...

Thats really easy, theres only one way of having more level, is Squashing the mix, although mastering engineers know how to do it better, you can achieve that by using a brickwall limiter:

use the Massey L2007 mastering limiter

another way is cliping a AD converter , like and Apogee or a Lavry

Mastering engineers do both, Clip the AD and Squash with the limiter

If you do it too much, you will achieve  higher RMS but then your mix will be lifeless