AMS Neve 1073 Sweeps

[Indecline]

A mic splitter or reamp would be preferable to keep performances the same. Some other instruments would be nice to hear as well.

Very interesting thread!! Great work

 

[Aaronrash]

Here's a folder to a fair shootout. Same mic same converter. Spoke as accurately as I could with each test. All level matched.

http://www.mediafire.com/?xayq65xm2ai8u

 

[Aaronrash]

Overdrive test next

 

[TheJames]

I've gotta say...I hear it....And I like it!

It's definitely not a performance issue...You can hear it in the timbre of the sound.

Hats off man...That's a massive undertaking and you knocked it out of the park.

 

[desol]

Great. Thanks man. That's better... Just a 5 minute listen on my speakers.

For me:

1. AMS1084 - Seems a little better overall. Little clearer lows, little more 'air' on top.
2. Aaron's build - Close to 1084..splitting hairs.
3. EZ1073 - Doesn't have any of the air, but I'll still offer that it has the same overall kind of body and timbre with the other two.

 

[Aaronrash]

Thanks guys,


The AMS1084 and my build sound so close I would be fine with either. When you push them hard they start sounding even bigger. The sound gets gigantic. Too big for some sources. I mainly just use them for vocals. I find that summing through them doesn't really offer much improvement or benefit. The EQ is another story.. just sparkles on everything.

I did a few things different in my build though. I got rid of several 39K bleed resistors that aren't really needed, sounds better to me without them. I also tried with the output zobel on and off for some cool variations. Even though it rings without it I like the way it sounds. Ringing transformers can actually sound really good on vocals in my opinion. Things get allot brighter.

Forgot to mention, the mic I'm using is a U47 with a EF12K in it that I built earlier this month. I'm loving it so far. The Blueberry does have allot more sheen though.

I matched everything for the shootout though. The zobel is attached.

The EQ sounds the same to me as well. I'm not hearing any difference between the AMS and my unit. I would be fine with either. I used the same caps, so it would make sense that they sound the same.

One of my favorite things about a class A Neve pre is the way it chokes on transients especially with vocals... Things get really syrupy and thick. I will demonstrate this in another test.

 

[Ilya]

I used the same caps, so it would make sense that they sound the same.

Which caps did they use in EQ networks?

 

[Aaronrash]

Vishay Roederstein polyester films. They sound pretty much the same as vintage Mullard C296 that were used in the originals

 

[Ilya]

Thanks! Are they MKT series caps?

 

[Aaronrash]

Yep that's them.

Here they are at mouser where I got mine

http://www.mouser.com/Vishay/Passive-Components/Capacitors/Film-Capacitors/_/N-9x371Zscv7?P=1z0z819Z1yznbzrZ1z0zls5Z1yzn99g

 

[ruffrecords]

Even my 63 year old ears can hear the differences between the three. I find it hard to believe the difference would not be visible in a frequency response test. Have you done that?

Cheers

Ian

 

[TheJames]

I'm going to have to revisit my Neve's.  :/

I really wish this could be figured out in a manner that didn't require 10 miles of hand terminated wire.

Obviously it's more than just the components.

 

[soapfoot]

Wow, I'd love to see the BAE 1084 included in this test, too!

 

[desol]

I really wish this could be figured out in a manner that didn't require 10 miles of hand terminated wire.

It doesn't. The DPA has little wire...but it has the same air on top.

 

[Aaronrash]

Yep I have measured everything. I have graphs of them all. they are all in the same ballpark.

I'll do more sweeps and post them

Here's something strange... If you listen for the fan noise of my computer, It's allot louder in

the EZ1073 take witch leads me to believe either 60dB on the EZ is actually allot louder than

60dB or 60dB on my AMS Neve and my build are actually lower than 60dB. Either way, the gain

staging sounds very different.

I don't want this to be a EZ1073 dissing forum. The sound is just something I noticed with my

builds immediately after I built them because I've owned AMS and used vintage units for a really

long time and they didn't quite sound like what I was used to. The EZ1073 is a awesome value

piece. When summing tracks, tracking drums and stuff the differences are way less noticeable.

It's just vocals that really show the difference, and since that's what I use these for I

couldn't settle. Some things just can be extremely difficult ot measure, all I'm using is REW

Another thing a very highly respected designer had pointed out to me was that in the 1073 there

are several high impedance areas of the circuit that have to be kept isolated. Loud parts kept

away from quiet parts... etc. Colin knows what he is doing though and everything he makes

comes out amazing so I don't get what the deal is with the EZ. I am about to build his pultec kits. I hear they are pretty silky.

20AWG Wire is much thicker than the little copper PCB traces in the EZ. That's something to think about. I haven't seen the DPA traces, I never looked but maybe they are thicker. I know on the MA5 they are huge.

Also, I'm using the green can transformers in my builds, I dont really think that has anything

to do with it but that is a notable difference between the EZ and my build. The both have AMS outputs though.

Lastly, everything is terminated into 681Ohm witch is mathematicly correct for the 1166. I ran both test with and without terminations. Not much a auible difference at all but on the graph the high end rolls of with the termination witch is expected.

 

[desol]

Any acoustic instrument's extreme top end will be better represented. Acoustic guitar, Cymbals, Vocals, etc. I heard a clip the other day on yougube, that was a comparison on acoustic guitar between a vintech and a vintage 1073...the shimmer was quite noticeable and gave a pleasing, finished quality to the sound. I wasn't the only one that could hear it either.

Have a listen.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cUqsQrr-RTI

 

[rainton]

It's indeed very noticeable - but I really wonder what it is that makes the EZ1073  so different.

I built some EZ1084s recently - it's Bluzzi's EQ project - and it's also a pcb design but the top end shimmer that the AMS 1084 and your 1073 have,
is exactly one of the things I love about my EZ1084s! They sound phenomenal!

And I'm aware that the EZ1084 only has the Line stage yet and is lacking the mic stages (at least until Bluzzi comes up with his 1290LE to go with the EZ1084) but if I use it on (already with a clean preamp recorded) vocals that's exactly what the 1084 does to them - makes them sound biiig and gives them a certain sparkle just like what I was hearing from your samples...

And the EZ1084 also follows the original schematics 1:1 but it's all on one pcb instead of several amplifier boards. I also handwired all the concentric switches in my units though:

http://groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=55717.0

Anyway, I just wanted to mention that since it seems like the EZ1073 only sounds so different because it's a pcb design but then with the EZ1084 I don't have the impression that the pcb design does anything bad to the sound...

 

[Aaronrash]

I don't think "PCB" is really the enemy here. Certainly there are several awesome pieces designed around PCB's.

I think track thickness and layout is what's really critical with this circuit. I think components matter allot less than people may think. As Geoff likes to say. It's now what you use but how you use it.

 

[ding]

Anyone read and or tried this...
http://auroraaudio.net/ask-geoff/neve-2/tech-tips

 

[desol]

I built some EZ1084s recently - it's Bluzzi's EQ project - and it's also a pcb design but the top end shimmer that the AMS 1084 and your 1073 have,
is exactly one of the things I love about my EZ1084s! They sound phenomenal!

And I'm aware that the EZ1084 only has the Line stage yet and is lacking the mic stages (at least until Bluzzi comes up with his 1290LE to go with the EZ1084) but if I use it on (already with a clean preamp recorded) vocals that's exactly what the 1084 does to them - makes them sound biiig and gives them a certain sparkle just like what I was hearing from your samples...

I'm skeptical...no offense. But I've heard so many stories from guys in denial about their clones, guys in denial about Vintech's, etc...not saying you are but...

I'm starting to think that the vast majority of clones simply don't have the 'actual' freq response 20-20k~.5db that the authentic units have, regardless of whether they measure correct...
my ears tell me different. I'm betting that this applies not only to the top end brilliance, but the pillowy, huge low end as well.

I'm also wondering about the eq. When the eq is officially 'out'...does the signal still run though the eq circuitry?
But this wouldn't explain Aaron's first build that had the eq...but still lacked the airiness on top.

Anyone read and or tried this...
http://auroraaudio.net/ask-geoff/neve-2/tech-tips

Yeah, I was reading that as well the other day.


@Aaron - What's powering your homebrew build vs the AMS unit Aaron?