Carnhill Iron

[thenovice]

Hi

Not exactly witchcraft but close to it is the design of the transformers... that is a topic that's a wonderful can of worms. There's so much BS flies around on this topic and I often find myself between a rock and a hardplace... knowing one source of info, from the horse's mouth ... and hearing contrary tales allegedly from good sources... but sources that have been known to "bend" the truth.

What do we know that's set in granite like truth?

Marinair Radar made both input and output transformers. The mic input transformer was a stock Marinair design. The output transformers were a colaboration between Neve Engineers and the head of Marinair. St Ives did not play any part of this and never made the original LO1166 or 2567 transformers. For that matter, they never made the tertiary feedback transformers for the outputs of 3415's and 31105's and only really started making output transformers, as the toroidals, in the AIR Monseratt stye consoles and later dough-nut toroids in Neve BBC custom desks and 81/51/V series.

From my recollection at Neve, the only St Ive output transformers I can recall, prior to the toroids, is the VT22543 600:600 1:1 transformers used with the 8026 consoles that had electronically balanced output 3401 and 3402 modules that were replaced with the 3405 with the LO1173 transformers.

So... we come screaming back to the 21st century and who is making transformers and who has retired and closed shop? St Ive's/Carnhill for the first and Marinair the second.

Given that they NEVER made the LO1166 transformer for the 1272/1073, this is the transformer that (to my distaste but what can one do?) they sell to all and sundry. How close is it to the original? I don't know and neither did they... probably as good an educated guess as the Sowter product.

And then Neve decided to remanufacture the 1073 though I would tactfully point out that, as spares, they never really stopped making it. I was still supplying them before I left Neve in December '85, years after the BCM10 and 8014's had ceased production.

They asked St Ive's to send them samples and, to their surprise, they did not meet the specifications of the original EM drawings. Every transformer and Inductor at Neve was made to an EM document that listed the design parameters. These are Neve documents that outsiders never see and are only supplied to manufacturers to fulfill orders to make inductors or transformers. St Ive's never had sight of these because they had no need to... Marinair were making them.

St Ives/Carnhill had to make several prototypes before AMS-Neve found that they met their original specs. The issue was low frequency distortion where the Marinair product was in single figure % and the St Ive's double figures.

To the best of my knowledge, as told to me by chums at AMS-Neve, these transformers are only supplied to AMS-Neve for their 1073. I have heard contrary viewpoints, but, then again I have heard a lot of tales of woe about other cloned Neve output transformers so take these with a pinch of salt.

That's the story to the best of my recollection. I like the new AMS-Neve modules but I don't like the metalwork... not that that will affect the sound!

researching @ gearslutz [don't ask why]
and ran across this msg.

curious anybody else ever read this?

fun facts!

btw.
I need the iron for the 1073 and 1081

 

[tommypiper]

Right.

He's right.

I think I read that before. I know Geoff. Have had many nice chats. He's very generous with info.

People are still buying the Carnhill iron and it seems to work fine. But it's not exactly like the old Marinairs, everyone has known or guessed that in some form for years.

I don't want to bring CJ's research into this, but it did corroborate Geoff's points.

If one uses the Carnhill or Sowter iron, you'll still be grand. (The St. Ives/Carnhill inputs were installed in many original N desks. Even if different, they passed the N tests and were used in the construction of the desks. No one complains about them being in original N desks.)

Guys have said that the outputs, even the originals, contribute to a cloudy low end. So trying something else might be interesting. The Sowters sound clearer I've heard. Cinemag can make something that works easily too...

 

[thenovice]

so nothing is a "Marinair"
but the carnhills come closer to the originals than the sowters?

or is this merely personally taste?

or a case of my destination is "here"
now i just need to choose which "route" to get there?

 

[CJ]

There is a comparrison thread around here somewhere.
Some nut was cutting up perfectly good Neve outputs.
What an idiot. But the info was cool, so what the heck.
Whatever floats your ballon.

 

[tommypiper]

[quote author="thenovice"]so nothing is a "Marinair"
but the carnhills come closer to the originals than the sowters?[/quote]

Yes. In short. You got it.

Both Sowters and Carns are good. As I said, the Carnhill inputs (in earlier ownership as St. Ives) were used in N desks in the 1970s, so they ARE originals. Carnhill still makes 'm. This is both the line and mic input transformers. But, no, they are not Marinars and have been shown to have some differences under the hood, err shield, from M's. (Thanks to certain crazy nut individuals.) However, you go into any studio with a Neve desk and you may find these St. Ives inputs are original spec items in that desk. So, only purist nuts care. It's mostly academic. There is said to be a subtle sonic difference between them, which I do not discount, but IMO there are more important things to worrry about. The debate about which is better can be endless. Technically, the M's would appear to have an upper hand, but again the St. Ives are also original items in the vintage beasts and no one is complaining. I've heard preferences stated for both, and I myself have not conducted a scientific listening test so I'm atheistic on the matter. :grin:

As for Sowters, they are not supposed to be clones or replicas, AFAIK. It doesn't matter. I'm sure they sound great. Period.

[quote author="thenovice"]or is this merely personally taste?[/quote]
Yes. And fashion statement. And security blanket. If you want to have the "original" flavors you need to buy the old original stuff on ebay.

[quote author="thenovice"]or a case of my destination is "here"
now i just need to choose which "route" to get there?[/quote]
Yes. You will get to the same desination no matter what iron you use, Sowter, marinar, Carnhill, or custom Cinemag. Scientific tests and experienced ears may hear slight differences among them, and I'm sure it's true. I'm sure I'd hear it as well. But remember every vintage N module also sounds different from the next one.

The Carnhill input and output is the closest you'll get if you're interested in pure piety, short of old recycled mariners. I don't think you'd hear a difference. If you want a clearer bottom end choose Sowter outputs.

Just get what's cheapest and easiest at hand.

Everyone says the sound is in the iron, which is true, but it's in the overall circuit as a whole too. All the above mentioned iron will drive you down the road to more or less the same swimming hole.

PS: Your caps will also change the sound. And so will the power supply...

 

[clintrubber]

[quote author="CJ"]There is a comparrison thread around here somewhere.
Some nut was cutting up perfectly good Neve outputs.
What an idiot. But the info was cool, so what the heck.
Whatever floats your ballon.[/quote]
:wink: :thumb:

 

[drpat]

...

 

[thestudio]

I believe "rascalseven" did a tear down of a Marinair and had Carnhill make a run of these transformers. :?: I would like to try some of these cloned Marinairs. :wink:
Was the run from Carnhill just input or input and output :?:

:guinness: :green:

 

[tommypiper]

I agree with Patrick. If you're building a couple mic pres it really won't make much difference. If you're building a 40 channel console then the build up of tone will be something to consider... But people fetishize this stuff. Technically, M's are the best, but as I said everything works and sounds good. It's interesting to talk about and compare everything, but at the end of the day you just need to plug it in and make music. Mic choice and placement will change your tone a lot more on an individual basis. Instead look for ways to improve things by using better caps and PSU, etc.