Donald trump. what is your take on him?

[mattiasNYC]

You have probably hit on the major flaw with Democracy.

To get elected, the governing party has to act in the interests of the country that elected them, acting in the interests of humanity always comes a poor second.

The same thing happens with companies/corporations, people get fired because its in the interest of the shareholders.

And in a nation like the US, and I suspect also GB, the government acts in the interests of those with power and wealth, i.e. not "the country that elected them".

When there are disputes over resources, the strong win and the weak lose, Darwin in action.

DaveP

Sure. And we should strive to change that.

 

[mattiasNYC]

The Cologne new year's sexual attacks made international news but is not exactly new. If we look back there was a female reporter  (CBS)  in Egypt during the arab spring (2011) mass protests in Tahir square, who was similarly sexually molested. This is one obvious example of a huge cultural divide. Women begin being held in low regard, and infidel women, even lower.  Several years ago there was a big stink about young girls being sexually abused in Birmingham, England. Again this was ignored for some time due to political correctness, but finally enough people found out and the government had to act.

There have been similar attacks in several other western (european) nations, but often downplayed by media to not appear bigoted.

This is a serious problem that the EU needs to figure out. We'll see if putting up posters inside German swimming pools saying it's not OK to grab-ass women just because they are wearing bathing suits in public areas, helps. To change, these people need to want to change, and their religious leaders tell them to hold onto their old traditions.

Interesting times. 

JR

I think there are two things to consider though;

First is the fact that a lot of this attention is fueled by xenophobic and straight up racist elements. There's simply no doubt about this. So the situation is exacerbated by the fact that it is foreigners that are (presumably) guilty. The groups playing up these crimes wouldn't say peep if it was a member of their own kind that was guilty. And so there's a problem when acknowledging these crimes because it does help those elements peddle their agenda, and their agenda is tremendously dangerous.

We can see a problem with this because we often don't see a lot of headlines about the rape culture of athletes. We're not blanket-blaming sports for the behavior of a minority. Nor are we saying that western culture is prone to pedophilia etc. But we see these stories every now again, ranging from group-rape by "ethnic nationals" to busted child-porn rings to pedo-tourists busted in Asia to other things. Yet when it's one of us it's never our culture that's the problem, it's always a case of bad apples that are the exception. So again this is just to say that it fuels a fire that is very dangerous.

The second thing is just what we should expect. If you listen to the average vocal anti-immigration person the ideal candidate to enter country X has a job lined up but doesn't take jobs from citizens, has money so that he doesn't tax the welfare system but isn't wealthy because we should help the poor, has a good education but isn't too upper class.... and so on. I think the reality is that when you accept refugees you either have to pony up and donate money or you lose some jobs to them. And you either accept that it is often those with means that can escape. And, most importantly, that if you have people fleeing from the horrors we've seen described you're not going to get people without emotional scars.

Now, people probably think, oh well, but still, we can't accept this and clearly there's something wrong with their culture. However, if you look at even the most wealthy nation with the best means to treat the best military the best you still have negative effects from PTSD. Yet our default characterization of these people is "heroes" as opposed to "culturally fueled potential criminals". We don't go calling for this culture to change because it's not part of the narrative, regardless of what the truth actually is.

 

[JohnRoberts]

You have probably hit on the major flaw with Democracy.

To get elected, the governing party has to act in the interests of the country that elected them, acting in the interests of humanity always comes a poor second.

The same thing happens with companies/corporations, people get fired because its in the interest of the shareholders.

And in a nation like the US, and I suspect also GB, the government acts in the interests of those with power and wealth, i.e. not "the country that elected them".

If it was simply about wealth and power, Hillary would not have lost to Obama last time.  Jeb wouldn't be getting his ass kicked on the republican side. Popular sentiment does matter.

When there are disputes over resources, the strong win and the weak lose, Darwin in action.

DaveP

Sure. And we should strive to change that.

Free markets provide the most effective allocation of resources. Rule of law protecting property rights and individual freedoms, allows citizens to prosper and improve their personal economic situation, while it involves effort on their part.

Simple democracy is little more than a formalized lynch mob, which is why we are a representative (democratic) republic, while the federal government has been somewhat corrupted and distorted from the original plan by crony capitalism.

One of the few (only) good things to come out of the occupy movement was a call for separation of business and state, not unlike the proscribed separation of church and state.

JR 

 

[JohnRoberts]

The Cologne new year's sexual attacks made international news but is not exactly new. If we look back there was a female reporter  (CBS)  in Egypt during the arab spring (2011) mass protests in Tahir square, who was similarly sexually molested. This is one obvious example of a huge cultural divide. Women begin being held in low regard, and infidel women, even lower.  Several years ago there was a big stink about young girls being sexually abused in Birmingham, England. Again this was ignored for some time due to political correctness, but finally enough people found out and the government had to act.

There have been similar attacks in several other western (european) nations, but often downplayed by media to not appear bigoted.

This is a serious problem that the EU needs to figure out. We'll see if putting up posters inside German swimming pools saying it's not OK to grab-ass women just because they are wearing bathing suits in public areas, helps. To change, these people need to want to change, and their religious leaders tell them to hold onto their old traditions.

Interesting times. 

JR

I think there are two things to consider though;

First is the fact that a lot of this attention is fueled by xenophobic and straight up racist elements. There's simply no doubt about this. So the situation is exacerbated by the fact that it is foreigners that are (presumably) guilty. The groups playing up these crimes wouldn't say peep if it was a member of their own kind that was guilty. And so there's a problem when acknowledging these crimes because it does help those elements peddle their agenda, and their agenda is tremendously dangerous.

Seriously....  women being robbed and sexually assaulted in public, don't care who did it, they just want it to stop. Even the mayor of Cologne tried to ignore it, and the authorities in Birmingham ignored it for far too long.  It's not only unacceptable, but it's illegal, so criminal behavior must be prosecuted.  Perhaps women should carry tasers or some form of effective self defense, but the women are not at fault as some suggest.

We can see a problem with this because we often don't see a lot of headlines about the rape culture of athletes. We're not blanket-blaming sports for the behavior of a minority. Nor are we saying that western culture is prone to pedophilia etc. But we see these stories every now again, ranging from group-rape by "ethnic nationals" to busted child-porn rings to pedo-tourists busted in Asia to other things. Yet when it's one of us it's never our culture that's the problem, it's always a case of bad apples that are the exception. So again this is just to say that it fuels a fire that is very dangerous.

This seems to be more widespread than a few bad apples, and fairly common in their home nations if women do not behave conservatively enough in public (head scarves and fully covered) they can and do get attacked. In some nations women still can not drive or travel unescorted.

The second thing is just what we should expect. If you listen to the average vocal anti-immigration person the ideal candidate to enter country X has a job lined up but doesn't take jobs from citizens, is money so that he doesn't tax the welfare system but isn't wealthy because we should help the poor, has a good education but isn't too upper class.... and so on. I think the reality is that when you accept refugees you either have to pony up and donate money or you lose some jobs to them. And you either accept that it is often those with means that can escape. And, most importantly, that if you have people fleeing from the horrors we've seen described you're not going to get people without emotional scars.

Now, people probably think, oh well, but still, we can't accept this and clearly there's something wrong with their culture. However, if you look at even the most wealthy nation with the best means to treat the best military the best you still have negative effects from PTSD, and it shows in statistics. Yet our default characterization of the members of these people is "heroes" as opposed to "rape-risks". We don't go calling for this culture to change because it's not part of the narrative, regardless of what the truth actually is.

I'm having difficulty following your rant... It seems clear that there are cultural differences and they must adapt to our laws and rules of decorum. If they don't want to assimilate why come here? (rhetorical).

There are some valid issues to consider and politics tends to hyperbole because low information voters can't grasp complex subjects.  That doesn't make them bigots or racists (? not even a race).  This name calling is classic politics too.... 8)

JR

 

[DaveP]

Political Correctness has permeated this thread.

Used to be that obese people were just plain fat, now there is a move to call them something less descriptive  like weight challenged or BS like that.

People used to be just dumb (US version of word, UK version means unable to speak) now they are low information.

Whatever next!

DaveP

 

[dmp]

hum, seems like a lot of us like this forum because it doesn't have name calling, personal attacks, and other crap like that - but it turns out that is just sneaky political correctness being  foisted on us?

 

[mattiasNYC]

If it was simply about wealth and power, Hillary would not have lost to Obama last time.  Jeb wouldn't be getting his ass kicked on the republican side. Popular sentiment does matter.

Of course popular sentiment matters, that's where the actual votes come from. But I wouldn't describe it as simply as a candidate having come from a particular group or anything, but rather whether or not certain groups benefit over a longer time period. And they do.

Free markets provide the most effective allocation of resources.

Perhaps you mean "efficient". Any system can effectively allocate resources, the question is how it's done. And if you meant "efficient" then I have to say that "efficiency" in and by itself is neither good nor bad.

Rule of law protecting property rights and individual freedoms, allows citizens to prosper and improve their personal economic situation, while it involves effort on their part.

Simple democracy is little more than a formalized lynch mob, which is why we are a representative (democratic) republic, while the federal government has been somewhat corrupted and distorted from the original plan by crony capitalism.

One of the few (only) good things to come out of the occupy movement was a call for separation of business and state, not unlike the proscribed separation of church and state.

JR

I think I agree 100%.

 

[mattiasNYC]

Seriously....  women being robbed and sexually assaulted in public, don't care who did it, they just want it to stop. Even the mayor of Cologne tried to ignore it, and the authorities in Birmingham ignored it for far too long.  It's not only unacceptable, but it's illegal, so criminal behavior must be prosecuted.  Perhaps women should carry tasers or some form of effective self defense, but the women are not at fault as some suggest.

Ok. I don't really think I disagree with that and I don't think it contradicts anything I said, not that that should be the assumed goal of our posts...... ;-)

This seems to be more widespread than a few bad apples, and fairly common in their home nations if women do not behave conservatively enough in public (head scarves and fully covered) they can and do get attacked. In some nations women still can not drive or travel unescorted.

That's partially true. However:

The second thing is just what we should expect. If you listen to the average vocal anti-immigration person the ideal candidate to enter country X has a job lined up but doesn't take jobs from citizens, is money so that he doesn't tax the welfare system but isn't wealthy because we should help the poor, has a good education but isn't too upper class.... and so on. I think the reality is that when you accept refugees you either have to pony up and donate money or you lose some jobs to them. And you either accept that it is often those with means that can escape. And, most importantly, that if you have people fleeing from the horrors we've seen described you're not going to get people without emotional scars.

Now, people probably think, oh well, but still, we can't accept this and clearly there's something wrong with their culture. However, if you look at even the most wealthy nation with the best means to treat the best military the best you still have negative effects from PTSD, and it shows in statistics. Yet our default characterization of the members of these people is "heroes" as opposed to "rape-risks". We don't go calling for this culture to change because it's not part of the narrative, regardless of what the truth actually is.

I'm having difficulty following your rant... It seems clear that there are cultural differences and they must adapt to our laws and rules of decorum. If they don't want to assimilate why come here? (rhetorical).

I'm questioning whether or not any statistically significant larger amount of rape in these nations is due to culture or if is due to what "we" would ignore or not attribute to culture. If you go research the effects of PTSD on US military personnel for example you'll see that they as a group appear to be over-represented when it comes to crime. So, does this make us ask what to do with US military culture? Or is it that military personnel come from a culture of crime to begin with? Or is it that they are hurt by war and violence, suffer PTSD, and that brings out the worst in humans? If it's the latter, why do we extend this courtesy to these people yet not to others?

It's entirely predictable that we'll get more people with more problems when we accept refugees, because they experienced war. If we wanted only mentally undamaged people they'd have to be refugees from a non-war zone to begin with. So I just don't see how we can figure out just what amount of people taken in are really acting the way they are because of PTSD or because of culture.

There are some valid issues to consider and politics tends to hyperbole because low information voters can't grasp complex subjects.  That doesn't make them bigots or racists (? not even a race).  This name calling is classic politics too.... 8)

JR

Go look at European politics for a week and report back. Heck, just look at Trump (since we're in a Trump thread). The distinction between xenophobic/racist rhetoric or such a background within parties, and on the other hand legitimate concerns, is actually pretty easy to find. But you have to be open to it rather than just label any criticism as "classic politics" or "PC".

What would you call a Swedish party that changed its name at one point but has its roots in racist neo-fascist / neo-nazi ideologies and is now calling for registering the ethnicity of residents? When that party is calling Jewish Swedes 'not really Swedish'? That isn't racist? That isn't xenophobic? Of course it is. It's blatantly so.

There are two facts that I think are clear:

- If you play up what we're discussing their fire is fueled. So regardless of the legitimacy of the concern at hand you also risk legitimizing their other views. And it is those views that are dangerous.

- Accusing the criticism of such parties as "political correctness" is just sweeping the problem under the rug. And quite frankly I'm at a loss as to whether this is done because people are careless/thoughtless when they express themselves, ignorant, dumb or just actually in support of said policies and thus knowingly defending them (that wasn't directed at you btw).

 

[mattiasNYC]

Political Correctness has permeated this thread.

Yeah, 'cause you don't get to deride people, right? Or do you want to clearly explain just how "political correctness has permeated this thread"?

Used to be that obese people were just plain fat, now there is a move to call them something less descriptive  like weight challenged or BS like that.

Ok, so we'll call them "skin-color-makes-no-difference-challenged" then... How's that?

Oh, wait: This only goes one way, right?

People used to be just dumb (US version of word, UK version means unable to speak) now they are low information.

You wanna talk about these xenophobic and racist parties in Europe? Do you have enough information?

I would have thought you'd have been the last to actively dumb-down this thread, but you really succeeded in that post.

 

[DaveP]

Matt,

What is the politically correct description for people who can't see a joke and take everything literally? ???

I thought Americans  had finally got British Irony, seems not, ho hum :

DaveP

 

[JohnRoberts]

Matt,

What is the politically correct description for people who can't see a joke and take everything literally? ???

DaveP

angry.... 8)

JR

 

[miszt]

Nice story Rob.   I have said many times that small scale integration is a culturally enriching business, it's the large scale that causes the trouble IMO.

coming from a city which is multi-cultural, going to a school where I was 1 of only 3 English white people in my class, working alongside people from all over the world and very rarely with other English people...i can say quite categorically, that this is not true the more multicultural a city is, the better it is, and the more likely it is to survive; if not based on human social behaviours, but simply because of genetics - wide gene pool means a strong gene pool.


sure it takes time for people to learn local customs, but everyone knows how to behave themselves on the whole, ie don't be an a*sehole, its not difficult!

this whole thing about arabs/muslims sexually abusing people in Europe is right-wing stirrings, how many white women are sexually assaulted by white men? more, many more. infact I feel confident in suggesting that the ratio of men who do and don't sexually assault women, is pretty much identical regardless of the ethic background.

 

[mattiasNYC]

Matt,

What is the politically correct description for people who can't see a joke and take everything literally? ???

I thought Americans  had finally got British Irony, seems not, ho hum :

DaveP

Given that you brought it up in the first place, and in conjunction with your views on immigration: What's the politically correct description for someone who isn't funny?

 

[DaveP]

coming from a city which is multi-cultural, going to a school where I was 1 of only 3 English white people in my class, working alongside people from all over the world and very rarely with other English people...i can say quite categorically, that this is not true the more multicultural a city is, the better it is, and the more likely it is to survive; if not based on human social behaviours, but simply because of genetics - wide gene pool means a strong gene pool.

Lucky you,
you obviously aren't old enough to remember how the country was before.  For old guys like me the country has changed beyond recognition and no longer feels like home.  But it really doesn't matter what I think because the country now belongs to your generation and I wish you well.

this whole thing about arabs/muslims sexually abusing people in Europe is right-wing stirrings, how many white women are sexually assaulted by white men? more, many more. infact I feel confident in suggesting that the ratio of men who do and don't sexually assault women, is pretty much identical regardless of the ethic background.

You are totally wrong there and must have missed the news out of Germany, Denmark and Finland and elsewhere over the New Year celebrations.  You are right that right wing groups have jumped on it but it happened without their aid.  Hundreds, yes hundreds of women were sexually assaulted by North African/Arabic men, don't take my word for it, check it out.  The mayor of Cologne was under pressure because she tried to hush up the truth (Political Correctness) and the chief of police went too because they let it happen.

What has upset Germans was that they were taken in, in friendship and now they have done this.  What I will say is that these are unlikely to have been Syrian men with families, but more like economic migrants.  There were even statements by Muslims saying how ashamed they were of these people.  Remember, hospitality is a big deal for Arabs and to abuse it is a grave faux pas.

DaveP

 

[miszt]

Lucky you,
you obviously aren't old enough to remember how the country was before.  For old guys like me the country has changed beyond recognition and no longer feels like home.  But it really doesn't matter what I think because the country now belongs to your generation and I wish you well.

I do understand that not growing up in a multi-cultural society can present challenges as things change, but, if my 90 old gran, northerner born n bred, can do it, anyone can ...i'm not suggesting its easy of course, I've been to countries where I have felt uncomfortable by local customs, its not something you can just immediately learn to be comfortable with, but the more you immerse yourself, the easier it becomes

You are totally wrong there and must have missed the news out of Germany, Denmark and Finland and elsewhere over the New Year celebrations.  You are right that right wing groups have jumped on it but it happened without their aid.  Hundreds, yes hundreds of women were sexually assaulted by North African/Arabic men, don't take my word for it, check it out.  The mayor of Cologne had to resign because he tried to hush up the truth (Political Correctness) and the chief of police went too because they let it happen.

What has upset Germans was that they were taken in, in friendship and now they have done this.  What I will say is that these are unlikely to have been Syrian men with families, but more like economic migrants.  There were even statements by Muslims saying how ashamed they were of these people.  Remember, hospitality is a big deal for Arabs and to abuse it is a grave faux pas.

DaveP

I'll ask again, how many white women have been sexually assaulted by white men? look up the numbers to satisfy yourself that I'm not just saying something with no basis in reality

 

[DaveP]

Given that you brought it up in the first place, and in conjunction with your views on immigration: What's the politically correct description for someone who isn't funny?

I thought we were all on the same wavelength at least as far as humour was concerned, it will be a lesson well learned.

I don't really see what my views on immigration have got to do with it though?

DaveP

 

[DaveP]

I'll ask again, how many white women have been sexually assaulted by white men? look up the numbers to satisfy yourself that I'm not just saying something with no basis in reality

Over the course of a year, obviously white men commit more assaults, but that misses the point, these hundreds of assaults were all on the same night!!!  On New Years Eve, the only assaults should have been by the white guys, none should have been by God fearing asylum seekers who were very recent grateful guests.

I do understand that not growing up in a multi-cultural society can present challenges as things change, but, if my 90 old gran, northerner born n bred, can do it, anyone can ...i'm not suggesting its easy of course, I've been to countries where I have felt uncomfortable by local customs, its not something you can just immediately learn to be comfortable with, but the more you immerse yourself, the easier it becomes

When I went to school there were no black/brown people anywhere, the first African I saw face to face was our Nigerian Geography teacher, before that I had only seen them in films and on the TV.  The first Pakistani I saw was in 1970 when a family moved in down our road, we thought it was weird because his wife walked 6ft behind him.  My band used to play in the Seven Stars in Brick lane Whitechapel in the sixties with sawdust on the floor!  The whole street was occupied by Cockneys sitting on their doorsteps in the evening, now the entire district is a colony of Bangladesh as is the street I used to live in.

There was a spirit in England that held over from the war up until the sixties, then it died in the 70's.  I left the UK in 75 and worked in the Congo for two years as a volunteer builder/mechanic.  I loved the Africans I worked with and learnt their language (Lingala),  which I can still speak today.  When I came back the place was unrecognisable, smashed telephone boxes, graffiti, vandalism, the litter was unbelievable.  All the old shops were gone and taken over by Jakes Burgers and Kebab outlets with all the crap left from the last nights binge.  Women hardly ever went to pubs until girls went to hear bands play in them in the 60's, but I never saw a drunk girl back then because they didn't have the money for it!

Maybe I have given you an idea of how things used to be and why I don't like it now, you have grown up in New England so it doesn't strike you as much, but I just had to get out.  The weird thing is that rural France is much more like the England that I grew up with than England is now!

DaveP

 

[miszt]

actually the number of white women assaulted by white men on new years eve is as equally disturbing

I can see your point about the way things have declined in many areas of the UK (although actually there have always been areas of the UK that where in very bad shape), but that is not down to multi-culturalism, that is simply down to the ever growing religion of personal wealth, and the devide is creates in society, where you can walk down a nice leafy clean street, turn a corner, and walk on a dilapidated "sink estate"; often populated by non-white English people, but that doesn't mean they are the cause of the festering conditions, it means they are victims of an economic system which values a few % of the population, and leaves the rest to rot.

 

[JohnRoberts]

I'll ask again, how many white women have been sexually assaulted by white men? look up the numbers to satisfy yourself that I'm not just saying something with no basis in reality

The most recent stats I could find for all of Germany look like around 7500 to 8000 rapes and aggravated sexual assaults per year between 2011 and 2013.... 

However there are anecdotal reports of some 1000-1200 assaults on new year's eve alone.

I appreciate that this is a sensitive topic since nobody likes to hear about young women being attacked period. 

As I cited several examples there is a very specific pattern of behavior to these sexual assaults that points to ignorance of western law and what is acceptable public behavior in western countries, vs. what was legal and acceptable where they came from.

No doubt the right wing screamers will make a big deal about this, but that doesn't mean that they are wrong. Sometimes even a blind squirrel finds a nut.

This is unacceptable, criminal behavior and police were caught un-prepared for the surge in activity. Pretending it didn't happen will not prepare them for the next time.

I suspect if they tried that in several US regions they might experience some street justice.

JR 

 

[DaveP]

Miszt,

As I hope you noticed, I have absolutely no problem with other races, or different nationalities coming to the UK, as long as they want to integrate

It is not in an immigrants best interest to confine themselves into an area of self imposed apartheid.  It seems to me that the  original concept of multiculturalism was a licence to do just that.  Even Mother Merkel has said it has been a mistake.

But, no you are right, the change in Britain came about long before immigration took hold, and I attach no blame to that, but it has not helped social cohesion which was  under strain before they arrived.

DaveP