EZ1084EQ NEW BATCH COMING - SEE MY MARCH 27 COMMENT ON PAGE 38

[matta]

Hi Jim,

I'm still not sure about the 1073/1084 thing but you are making a lot of sense. But when someone asks you for a 1073 you can always point to this 1084. Will they poopoo it?

I come at this from the background of running a commercial studio... when clients/engineers/producers call they ask me 'Can I get a 1073?'? I've actually approached a local hire company to buy a pair of the BA 1073's for this specific reason so I can hire in when I need them... NOBODY has ever asked for a 1084, 1081 etc... while I understand the 1084 is a 'better' EQ in that it has more flexibility the market seems to be fixated on the 1073 as the 'standard'.

Have any of you got a 1073? Its been a few years since I've used one. I may have to rent one to get in touch with the Mojo again.

I don't own one but cut 4 records this year on an 8016 loaded with 1073's, so I remember the sound quite well.

I would prefer Grayhills and suggest strongly that you consider them. They feel so much better, they will last forever, they give a project a sense of top quality. They are worth the extra cost and they are worthy of any N-type project with great EQ. I understand the cost concern and the appeal of Lorlins. I personally think it's an example of "you gets whats you pays for."

I agree the Grayhills are better switches, but getting what you pay for?

Look inside the Chandler boxes, their multi thousand $$$ boxes are using Lorlin's and open frame Alpha switches... yet the market is paying for it... and they think they are getting VALUE! Costs aside the Grayhill is hands down a better switch and a group/bulk buy makes it worth while.

Below is a Vintech X73I, their lower cost 1073 clone (the more expensive features dual concentric pots and an LED output meter).

They have saved money buy doing what has been proposed, separate FREQ and GAIN pots and except for the multi deck gain pot it seems all the FREQ switches are 1 pole/12 way Grayhills. I have a project coming out next year and can tell you that if you take 250 pieces from Digikey the price drops from $16+ a piece to $8, so it might be worth it...

Also using the idea above I'm not sure you will comfortably fit in a 1084 into a single U rack, and with the 1073 you would have enough space to fit in an EZ1290 to make a channel strip if needed.... not going to happen, at leats not in this format with the 1084.

I'd also prefer it to have the option for a line in transformer since that is how I'd most probably use a project like this.

Cheers

Matt

 

[vertiges]

What would be the cost for a stereo unit ? Approx ?

eD)))

 

[Bluzzi]

Matt - Great comments. Thanks for posting the pictures. It shows basically what me and 3nity want to first achieve!

You can actually see the discrete boards. He is using Grayhills because they are the most practical and cheapest for that orientation of pcb mount. Otherwise I would use Lorlins.

Chandler also chose to wire in the pots. We intend to mount them on the pcb if at all possible.

What I don't see is the third inductor? (a 1084 needs 4 in all by the way).

Now I understand and appreciate your position as a copmmercial studio owner. This myth surrounding the 1073! Its like the Hammond B3. In my studio I have a C3. Its the EXACT same thing as a B3 except for the cabinet. Because of the B3 being more desirable I was able to get a deal on my C3. The players so far do not give a damn.

I would put more faith in people. I think if you have confidence in yourself you will find a way to make them see that 1084 is the "hidden secret" that no one wants to leak out! :razz:

Thing I don't understand is that if you rent a Chandler or Vintech with all those knobs how do they accept it as a 1073? Wouldn't they also accept our clone if you labeled it 1073?

The line in (and out) is a proposed option after the first version (mates with EZ1290).

I fooled around with sizes last night and I don't think its going to be a problem fitting a 1084 with in and out Xfrs. Power supply will be probably be external.

I don't think there is going to be any room for the EZ1290 in a 1RU. I have the boards loaded except for the switch and I don't see a way. The final goal is to incorporate the 1290 into the board (and that is going to be really crowded!). Check out the room left on the Vintech's 1073. Looks like enough for a few more stages. I can't see the entire board but he's left out the power supply right?

Group buys will be great if we can pull it off (switches, Inductors and Transformers and possibly Power Supplies would benefit). By the way the Grayhills are 12 positions and like the Lorlins you can split them as you add poles. 2 poles would be 6 positions each. that is enough for the switches (except the HF one I think).

We have to accept the fact that this is not going to be a Green Pre type of project but rather an LA2A type when you look at cost. If I looked at DIY as a cheap way to make pro gear only then I would be fooling myself most of the time. If you take account resale value and our time its better to buy that Vintech and be done with!

I'm looking at this as a challenge and also giving back to the DIY community a bit of what they have given me. That doesn't mean I don't care about cost but I can't let it get in the way of a better design in the end.

I think most of us here would just take longer to build something if they can't pay for all parts at first. I know for me that seems to make it easier to bare cost when its spread out.

jim

 

[Bluzzi]

[quote author="vertiges"]What would be the cost for a stereo unit ? Approx ?

eD)))[/quote]

Hard to predict for now. Carnhills XFRs and Inductors are going to be around $200-$250. Switches? $100? Case? Power Supply? Misc. Parts?

I'd say if you estimate $500 as your budget to complete one you should not surpass that. (although I think we can probably get it down to $350-$400 per channel).

Don't forget that if you have an EZ1290 then the XFRs will already be there!

jim

 

[matta]

Now I understand and appreciate your position as a cpmmercial studio owner. This myth surrounding the 1073! Its like the Hammond B3. In my studio I have a C3. Its the EXACT same thing as a B3 except for the cabinet. Because of the B3 being more desirable I was able to get a deal on my C3. The players so far do not give a damn.

It is hardly a myth, the fact was/is that there were more 1073's around that 1084's... they became more popular and thus increased the price/value, years a go you could get a 1073 module for around $500... the 'vintage' ones now are over $5000.00...

I would put more faith in people. I think if you have confidence in yourself you will find a way to make them see that 1084 is the "hidden secret" that no one wants to leak out!

Hah hah, trust me I have confidence in my gear, and am blessed to have a small but good selection from vintage Quad Eights, Spectra Sonics, Telefunken, Neumann etc to a plethora of DIY bits, 1176, LA-2A, Gssl's, API's, Neve, Animal Pre's etc... there enough hidden secrets/gems in here ;-)

I don't feel I NEED the 1073's, but if it was cost effect I might build a pair because, well, it is fun!

Thing I don't understand is that if you rent a Chandler or Vintech with all those knobs how do they accept it as a 1073? Wouldn't they also accept our clone if you labeled it 1073?

Not sure I made that assumption, if I did, it wasn't intended... the only parallel I was showing/telling you was from a design point of view that Alpha ARE accepted in 'quality' gear.

I might add that the above pic is not mine, I found it on the web but have uploaded it to my site incase it gets taken down. It is infact and older unit and to my knowledge the current Vintech line no longer use Carnhill transformers.

Power supply will be probably be external.

And so it SHOULD be!

I can't see the entire board but he's left out the power supply right?

Correct

By the way the Grayhills are 12 positions and like the Lorlin's you can split them as you add poles. 2 poles would be 6 positions each.

I am well aware... I'm dealing with Grayhill now about an order of 500 customs switches for a commercial design...

If I looked at DIY as a cheap way to make pro gear only then I would be fooling myself most of the time. If you take account resale value and our time its better to buy that Vintech and be done with!

DIY is CHEAPER... never CHEAP... time is money, at least to me it is, an when you cost it all out time, parts etc sometimes it is better to buy off the shelf, but not as much fun.

I disagree about the resale value though, if you make a unit that sounds great, built solid, and is pretty to behold, the value may be worth MORE than the vintech because... well... it is boutique.... heck even Maljkos was getting $1000,00 for his SCARY looking GSSL's...

I'm looking at this as a challenge and also giving back to the DIY community a bit of what they have given me. That doesn't mean I don't care about cost but I can't let it get in the way of a better design in the end.

Well what about the other projects offered up like the G9, GSSL, 1176 etc... costs were taken into account here, look at the Lorlins in iuse in each example... they are still GREAT projects and hold up just as well in my working studio... costs do come into play... always, I choose to make my boxes look great, others use a sharpie and misaligned/misdrileld holes... a mater or costs, and tastes I guess.

I understand your challenge, hence me giving you input, I could have just shut up and none of the above could have been shared, so tdo with it what you will.

I think most of us here would just take longer to build something if they can't pay for all parts at first. I know for me that seems to make it easier to bare cost when its spread out.

Hah hah, and then end up like me... with MANY unfinished projects and all your funds split between them instead of investing in a SINGLE project and seeing it through from start to finish... which is that way I've been approaching DIY the last few months and have great work/pieces to show for it ...

I'd say if you estimate $500 as your budget to complete one you should not surpass that. (although I think we can probably get it down to $350-$400 per channel).

Just to add another project here for those that are interested in 1073 project, take look at Neriks one. It is a fully feature 1073 WITH 1290, at last check he was doing a partial kit that included the customs inductors, ELMA switch, PCB and a few other bits at around $500 per channel.... a lot of off board wiring, but no more than the 1081 project in the past and 'vintage' units.

Cheers

Matt

 

[3nity]

DIY is not cheap......sometimes 300 or 500 to complete a project is a lot of money....at least for me....but compared to the real thing is a bargain!

Our project is intended to be a replica of the real thing and try to save some bucks on parts for the non-audio path......


I have my mic pres not labeled and people don't care as long as it sounds good! They prefer my SP-B1 agaisnt my AT4033....B1 is cheaper but sounds better ro me.

For the switches i prefer to spend less like the Lorlins....and use the money on the transformers or inductors....and Wimas.

2 cents....

 

[Bluzzi]

Matt - Please know that I greatly value and respect your comments.

but.. at some point me and 3nity will have to get going and design this thing. It will never satisfy everyone but hopefully most.

The reason I believe Grayhills make more sense than Lorlins in this case is that using Lorlins will necessitate at least 1 more board. The cost of which would offset the cost of switches. So we save $1 only to have to pay $1 somewhere else. Don't forget besides production cost there is development time! Another board...more time...that could be spent improving the man design.

I'm aware of Nerik's kit. Ours is along the same idea. Actually everyone is doing the same thing. Taking the individual Neve modules and pseudo assembling them in 1 big motherboard!

We decided that because people like Nerik and also Chris with his 1073/1084 hybrid have a full version we would start with an EQ only to keep things simpler, cheaper. Its our first project of this kind and we feel its better to set achievable goals (and even the EQ is not easy, but certainly easier than full 1073 or 1084). Also anyone that built the EZ1290 will want to add this EQ. Hopefully it will evolve from there.

I have great respect for Chris, Nerik and also Martin with his EZ1290
(which is what inspired me to take on this project). Also the fact that Nerik is a 1073 and Chris's is a hybrid 1073/1084 makes our 1084 fill a gap.

Why don't you get Nerik's for now? Our project is only in its infancy. And don't take that wrong, I mean that sincerely. You want a 1073 clone and there you have one! Our line in/out version is not going to happen for some time.

I also don't think ours will be any cheaper than his relatively (his is full 1073).

jim

 

[matta]

Jim,

Again, I'm not dying to get a 1073 project going!

I'm too busy investing money into other things. I've just paid off my U67 (Oh glorious days!) and just ordered my Lynx Aurora converters for the studio... (as hard I tried I just couldn't DIY those an had to get em off the shelf) for my needs I have MORE than enough gear right now, bar my G9 which I'm working through and will rack up my Quad Eight pres in Jan.... the 1073 wasn't just about ME... but the community at large.

I've stated my reasons/rational RE why I think the 1073 would be a better suited project (Less space, cheaper to build, better known/documented by the community at large etc...)... and somehow it keeps coming back to me and MY needs... Hah hah! I wish you guys well with whatever to do.

Don't worry, this is the last you will hear from me RE your project :thumb:

Matt

 

[ChrioN]

1073 with lorlins :grin:

 

[Bluzzi]

Don't worry, this is the last you will hear from me RE your project Heck Yeah!

Hope not! Keep in touch.

jim :thumb:

 

[tommypiper]

Good discussion, guys.

Lemme talk for a sec about using the EQ, which has design desicion implications.

To underline Matta's point, there really should be a way to run line level signals through the EQ. Preferrably with transformer. Otherwise much of the unit's application will be lost.

Some people love the EQ during tracking. I'm not wild about using the EQ too much in the mic pre during tracking. Of course it has its uses, especially filtering, and this is where the filters come in handy. But where these EQs really shine is mixing IMHO. For that you need the line in.

As a mic pre with EQ, the 1073 is all you need. Maybe this is why guys are requesting the 1073 (besides budget). You don't want too much EQ control in your mic pre. You want to make gentle changes, and general filtering. But for mixing, you definitely want the 1084, and for me this is 90% of what the EQ gets used for.

To answer your earlier question, Jim, what about dropping the high pass filter? I say it's fine to drop it, if there is a line in. Otherwise keep it, because the filters can be very handy during tracking.

So this becomes a philosophical question about what everyone wants to do with the unit. Traditionally it is multi-purpose -- tracking and mixing. I suggest you retain both of those applications to the fullest extent.

Because:

If you don't have the line in, then you can no longer mix and the 1084 EQ becomes superfluous over the 1073.

On the other hand, if you remove the high pass filter you are taking away a handy tracking tool.

If you remove both the filter and the line in -- then you have a very limited box, you can't mix and you can't filter during recording, and much of its utility is lost.

Cheers.

 

[Bluzzi]

Excellent points tommypiper !

We wanted to leave the line in until after we get the first version working but it looks like we will have to get it in there from the get go. You make a great advocate for this point

I guess there should be a line out too. I'll buy the Carnhill line in to try. I'm sure people will be able to pick their own flavor of XFR.

I think also that the LP filter will stay.

If it is possible and practical we will try and make the board such that if you do not want to use certain sections you would just leave out parts. That I think would satisfy the ones that prefer 1073. I'm just not sure if we can do that but we will certainly try.


jim

 

[bluezplaya]

I'm interested in this project. I would say go for the Grayhill's, however I have not used a grayhill switch before. I have used the Lorlin stuff many times and know the feel of it. I would just think that if most folks are saying to go with the Grayhill's then by all means do it. Bottom line is we're going to pay money for DIY stuff anyway, might as well get the better switches! In fact, those (like myself) who will be using the EZ1290's with this EQ already will have a grayhill switch for the pre.

Adam

 

[Bluzzi]

There seems to be lingering questions about the Lorlin/Grayhill debate.
Let me bring it all up to date so there is no doubt. This is what I've concluded with all your help.

1: Grayhill will be used throughout.
2: 1 channel will fit into a 1RU
3: EQ will be a 1084 clone
4: Option for Line IN and LINE OUT will be provided.
5: Power Supply will be external.
6: Provisions to patch into EZ1290 will be provided.

Hope that clarifies most things.


Still to be determined:

A: Is a power switch needed if we are going to use external PS?
B: Maybe have at least an "ON" indicator LED?

C: What happens when the EZ1290 is used and we want to use line in?
Do we ask Martin to incorporate a switch on next EZ1290 version?

D: And do we need a LINE IN XFR or could one use the MIKE IN XFR?

Jim

 

[Gwaggin390]

Still to be determined:

A: Is a power switch needed if we are going to use external PS?
B: Maybe have at least an "ON" indicator LED?

C: What happens when the EZ1290 is used and we want to use line in?
Do we ask Martin to incorporate a switch on next EZ1290 version?

D: And do we need a LINE IN XFR or could one use the MIKE IN XFR?

Jim[/quote]

Jim, how deep is the PCB going to be? there's no room for internal power?
if not, power switch on the supply is usually fine if space is tight on a front panel.

About C+D, It looks like the "line in" still uses the second two stages of the preamp, as well as the gain stages on the BA284 card for the EQ.
And there's 6 positions for "line gain" on that original 24 pos. switch, so that might also be considered. Hate to be toggle crazy, but maybe a +10/0/-10 "LINE gain" toggle might be good in there somewhere.
without the 24 pos. switch, maybe a simpler line in section should be devised, and if you do that, the options for Line in transformer are clearly there, but perhaps someone with some greater knowledge could devise an unbalanced line in with the correct impedance?(i'd still vote for a transformer)

A question i've wondered about, is that everyone loves the API550 eq, but that only has an output transformer. Is it electronically balanced on the input?
Either way, i pose the question because no one seems to miss the line input transformer there.......

If Martin were to add the switches, it would probably be best to add both a Mic/Line switch and the Eq in/out switch to his board, as the line in still uses the last two gain stages.

 

[Bluzzi]

Jim, how deep is the PCB going to be? there's no room for internal power?
if not, power switch on the supply is usually fine if space is tight on a front panel.

Looks like its going to be almost width of RU. Depth not sure yet. Depends if we do single or double sided pcb.

About C+D, It looks like the "line in" still uses the second two stages of the preamp, as well as the gain stages on the BA284 card for the EQ.
And there's 6 positions for "line gain" on that original 24 pos. switch, so that might also be considered. Hate to be toggle crazy, but maybe a +10/0/-10 "LINE gain" toggle might be good in there somewhere.
without the 24 pos. switch, maybe a simpler line in section should be devised, and if you do that, the options for Line in transformer are clearly there, but perhaps someone with some greater knowledge could devise an unbalanced line in with the correct impedance?(i'd still vote for a transformer)

Good idea with the -10, 0, +10. Maybe -20,-10 and 0?

A question i've wondered about, is that everyone loves the API550 eq, but that only has an output transformer. Is it electronically balanced on the input?
Either way, i pose the question because no one seems to miss the line input transformer there.......

I mostly prefer XFRs, I'm getting the Carnhill. I'll leave any other way, up to others. I don't see why one couldn't have a SS interface.

If Martin were to add the switches, it would probably be best to add both a Mic/Line switch and the Eq in/out switch to his board, as the line in still uses the last two gain stages.

I'm not sure it should be on his end yet. Martin has been great and when its time to involve him more I'll be able to put these questions to him.

I think at this point I have a good idea of the direction of the design. Now I have to pay bills, buy presents like all of us and then I need to find some loose change to by all the parts for this prototype!

Oh yeah , and try and help 3nity design the pcb!

Wish me luck! :shock:

jim

 

[Gwaggin390]

hey Jim,
funny. but now that i take a harder look at it,
your pursuit, before, of that 24 pos. switch wasn't the wild idea i first thought.
I did actually run across a 24 position horizontal PCB mount switch. It was VERY wide tho. Didn't catch a price.

I was just making a suggestion on the unbalanced line in, i'd prefer iron too, but you asked a couple times if it was necessary, so i assumed you were thinking of omitting it for cost sake.
As i mentioned before, apparently the way the G9 and Fabios 312 is setup, there's an easy way to use the mic transformer with a line signal.
What i don't know, is if it is detrimental to the signal to knock it down, then reamplify it.

As far as the "line gain" toggle, whatever works. What i don't know at this point, is how martin implemented his gain switch, as it looks like on the original, the third deck of the gain switch still effects the BA283, and could effect line gain also.

Don't be afraid to go double sided, Martin's is, and every place i've priced PCBs their "standard price" seems to be for double sided so it doesn't seem to be an added cost. Also, you don't have to go crazy with the second side, but you may be able to save a bunch of space by being able to run a few traces on the second side, and you may also be able to shorten traces and stay away from potential problems that long traces can bring.

So good luck, have a happy holiday!

[quote author="Bluzzi"]

Jim, how deep is the PCB going to be? there's no room for internal power?
if not, power switch on the supply is usually fine if space is tight on a front panel.

Looks like its going to be almost width of RU. Depth not sure yet. Depends if we do single or double sided pcb.

About C+D, It looks like the "line in" still uses the second two stages of the preamp, as well as the gain stages on the BA284 card for the EQ.
And there's 6 positions for "line gain" on that original 24 pos. switch, so that might also be considered. Hate to be toggle crazy, but maybe a +10/0/-10 "LINE gain" toggle might be good in there somewhere.
without the 24 pos. switch, maybe a simpler line in section should be devised, and if you do that, the options for Line in transformer are clearly there, but perhaps someone with some greater knowledge could devise an unbalanced line in with the correct impedance?(i'd still vote for a transformer)

Good idea with the -10, 0, +10. Maybe -20,-10 and 0?

A question i've wondered about, is that everyone loves the API550 eq, but that only has an output transformer. Is it electronically balanced on the input?
Either way, i pose the question because no one seems to miss the line input transformer there.......

I mostly prefer XFRs, I'm getting the Carnhill. I'll leave any other way, up to others. I don't see why one couldn't have a SS interface.

If Martin were to add the switches, it would probably be best to add both a Mic/Line switch and the Eq in/out switch to his board, as the line in still uses the last two gain stages.

I'm not sure it should be on his end yet. Martin has been great and when its time to involve him more I'll be able to put these questions to him.

I think at this point I have a good idea of the direction of the design. Now I have to pay bills, buy presents like all of us and then I need to find some loose change to by all the parts for this prototype!

Oh yeah , and try and help 3nity design the pcb!

Wish me luck! :shock:

jim[/quote]

 

[Bluzzi]

[quote author="Gwaggin390"]hey Jim,
funny. but now that i take a harder look at it,
your pursuit, before, of that 24 pos. switch wasn't the wild idea i first thought.
I did actually run across a 24 position horizontal PCB mount switch. It was VERY wide tho. Didn't catch a price. [/quote]That will come back later if I get to do add the 1290 to the EQ. This is hanging for now. I can tell you that the Elma 3 deck pcb style is quite expensive. I'm still convinced pcb is the way to go when making these for a public project.

I was just making a suggestion on the unbalanced line in, i'd prefer iron too, but you asked a couple times if it was necessary, so i assumed you were thinking of omitting it for cost sake.

Yes and also to make my life easier, just wanted to do it later but comments made here made me realize its best done at first. This part might be hard but may be easier than my fear tells me it is. I won't know until I get there.

As i mentioned before, apparently the way the G9 and Fabios 312 is setup, there's an easy way to use the mic transformer with a line signal.
What i don't know, is if it is detrimental to the signal to knock it down, then reamplify it.

That is unknown to me too. But I will try and make it so that people make their own choice. Where it gets complicated is trying to integrate all these options into Martin's EZ1290 or the EQ. Its going to have to be a compromise in a few places.

As far as the "line gain" toggle, whatever works. What i don't know at this point, is how martin implemented his gain switch, as it looks like on the original, the third deck of the gain switch still effects the BA283, and could effect line gain also.

Martin just removed the Line positions as well as the OFF positions (these were put in by NEVE to avoid "pops"). He was then left with 13. Leave out the first and you have a 12 positions identical to the 1073 drawing.

Don't be afraid to go double sided, Martin's is, and every place i've priced PCBs their "standard price" seems to be for double sided so it doesn't seem to be an added cost. Also, you don't have to go crazy with the second side, but you may be able to save a bunch of space by being able to run a few traces on the second side, and you may also be able to shorten traces and stay away from potential problems that long traces can bring.

I'm afraid of this entire behemoth project I've taken on! What I'd like to do is leave as much of the original "parts layout" of the modules and fit them on a large board. I guess what I want to achieve is a board that connects all the modules together as well as the switches replacing all the wiring. I'm not knowledgeable enough to want to alter the way it was done. I'd like to also keep trace size to original if possible. Martin's board is a perfect example of this. However if it becomes a real pain to do this we will follow path of least resistance.

So good luck, have a happy holiday!

Thank you very much Gwaggin390. Thanks for taking the time to comment on this project.

Because of you all I have a much clearer idea of what to do and how it should look. I think its time for me to begin ordering parts and getting down to it. The pool is deep and I'll learn only by jumping in!

Happy Holidays DIYers

jim

 

[JW]

If this is going in the direction of the 1084 AND it can be done for hopefully around $350 a channel, I'm in!

 

[Bluzzi]

[quote author="JW"]If this is going in the direction of the 1084 AND it can be done for hopefully around $350 a channel, I'm in![/quote]

1084 it is.

However your $ is well under my estimated cost. Unless you mean without the transformers? Those are about $125 for both. Just the Inductors alone are about $160 to $200 depending on shipping fees. Then you have case, Power Supply, XLR connectors, Grayhill switches, cost of PCB, knobs etc.
So without the In and Out XFRs, it would probably be $350-$400.

If there is enough demand there may be a full kit. But I'd need 50 at least to get prices down. But that is really premature.


jim