How would you go about getting a Neumann U47 ?

[Shroomystic]

What would the best and "cheapest" way to get hands onto a Neumann U47 ?

-> Straight up getting one of the full kits that are available out there ?
-> Buy Capsule / Circuitry + Components / Body / Power Supply ----> All individually from several places ?
----> And if so, for what would go then especially for all the single parts ?
----> Would you for a 1 to 1 clone of the og. circuitry or get a modded one that is expanding the og. circuitry ?

What way will be cheaper in the end / What way will sound "better" in the end ?

And if that is settled, what would be your choice of a (DIY) preamp to run it through ?

And well for a even bigger question would you even go the route to a U47 or would say another project makes more sense to tackle ?

That would be really interesting, as there seem to be a few different routes to go here, maybe its possible to establish the "best" from all of them.
Having the urge to some day end up with a stereo pair of them, would be super interesting how the road there could look like

 

[Khron]

What is "better", or what does "better" mean (to you, at least)? And compared to what?

 

[rogs]

Depends why you want a U47?..... It's a fine mic, most folk seem to agree about that. But a £200 mic like the Rode NT1 can sound very similar.
Take a listen here -



You'll soon realise the price of a real U47 has more to do with the 'Veblen goods' property of the device, than it does to any technical superiority.
There's a lot of marketing 'hype' that surround some high end mics, and that creates some silly prices.
Bit like prices associated with other 'designer' goods - like Rolex watches and Gucci handbags for example.

If you're looking to record 'A list' intenational recording stars, then of course you're going to need a U47. If however you're only recording sounds made by us 'ordinary mortals', then an LDC mic like a Rode NT1 - or something similar - should do pretty much the same job ... for about £7000 less money!

 

[LevinGuitar]

Cheapest way I would do:

Get a good M7/K47/K49

Buy a second hand tube microphone with similar basket, replace the tube with some pentode (rewiring the socket and adjusting bias)

Lower the B+ in the psu if it's a multipatternt mic, or adjust resistor divider in the mic if it's a cardioid only.

If you want to improve some low end response/transparency, find a good and big (that still fit your body) transformer 10:1 or higher.

Change the output cap to a mkt or whatever you like more.

 

[johnR]

But a £200 mic like the Rode NT1 can sound very similar.

The mics in that video clip sound quite different to me.

I'm not criticising the NT1. It's a decent mic, especially for the price, but it isn't a U47 soundalike.

 

[SubSpec]

I've been hung up on a 47' for a bit, and am still looking at options. But, what I have realized is that many of the idealized performances that my brain associates with the U47 (i.e. the silky, warm, detailed and full vocal recordings) have as much or likely more to do with microphone technique of the vocalist than the actual mic used.

Okay, that observation adds nothing meaningful to the conversation, but, since we broached the topic and since I've been obsessing over this for a bit I thought I'd throw it out there.

Myself, having a Blue Bottle and not being taken by the B7 capsule (which I have since traded away), have been considering picking up an og M7 lollipop but I know the headbasket of the 47 is a significant factor in that sound so I've held off for now. Next line of thought is hacking a 47-esque headbasket with an M7 onto a bayonet mount. We'll see if I actually follow through with that one though.

My rants out of the way, will keep an eye on this thread to see how I can most effectively burn my money on something I don't really need

 

[rogs]

The mics in that video clip sound quite different to me.

I'm not criticising the NT1. It's a decent mic, especially for the price, but it isn't a U47 soundalike.

I don't think the Youtube audio compression on that video clip is going to help very much here?...

Here are the original 24 bit 96KHz .wav files that were posted originally on the recording studio website.
I can't find the original link, 9 years on, so these are the files I downloaded at the time :

https://www.jp137.com/las/MicA.wav
https://www.jp137.com/las/MicB.wav
I find them very close? .. but then my ears aren't what they were!

For those who can appreciate the difference, there will be no need for me to identify which file is which mic.
I'm sure it will be obvious?.... (Not to me, sadly)

 

[erik_DK]

What is "better", or what does "better" mean (to you, at least)? And compared to what?

I guess "better" in this context means closest or as close as possible soundwise to an original Neumann U47.

/Erik

 

[Khron]

I guess "better" in this context means closest or as close as possible soundwise to an original Neumann U47.

/Erik

... Which is a complete unknown, realistically speaking. Particularly since whichever original production run ones you can find could be in various states of needing-maintenance, nor will you find two that sound alike (today), so...

 

[McIrish]

I've worked with a number of clones and vintage U47 & U48. Every single mic sounded slightly different. I would account that to the capsule (M7 or K47). The original U47 came with a PVC M7 but was changed to a K47 capsule. The age of the capsule is going to make a difference. CNC was not a thing when they were first made so tolerances would be very loose by today's standards.

A few clones I made were basically a Miktek CV4 with a Beesneez K7 capsule. That get's you pretty close but the headbasket is smaller than a U47, so that play a small part in its sound. To go pretty inexpensively, get an Apex 460, swap the capsule and modify the electronics.

Honestly, at least 80% of the sound of any mic is the capsule. There are a few really good options for K47 type capsules. Beesneez and Arienne have some K47 capsules. I can vouch for both. I'd pick the BN-K7 if I had the money for it. M7 capsules are more rare, especially if they are PVC. I've heard that the 3U M7 capsule is pretty good. A number of companies are using those in their clones. Some of them just use the 3U backplate and reskin it themselves,

 

[erik_DK]

... Which is a complete unknown, realistically speaking. Particularly since whichever original production run ones you can find could be in various states of needing-maintenance, nor will you find two that sound alike (today), so...

 

[johnR]

I don't think the Youtube audio compression on that video clip is going to help very much here?...

Here are the original 24 bit 96KHz .wav files that were posted originally on the recording studio website.
I can't find the original link, 9 years on, so these are the files I downloaded at the time :

https://www.jp137.com/las/MicA.wav
https://www.jp137.com/las/MicB.wav
I find them very close? .. but then my ears aren't what they were!

For those who can appreciate the difference, there will be no need for me to identify which file is which mic.
I'm sure it will be obvious?.... (Not to me, sadly)

Thanks for the links. I still hear the difference. Listen to the low mids. Mic A sounds cleaner and harder in that range than Mic B. Mic B is smoother and warmer in the low mids, which is what I'd expect from a tube-and-transformer circuit and a k47 capsule. Based on that I'm pretty sure that Mic A is the NT1 and Mic B is the U47.

I'm listening on Beyerdynamic DT-250 headphones, FWIW.

 

[rogs]

Thanks for the links. I still hear the difference. Listen to the low mids. Mic A sounds cleaner and harder in that range than Mic B. Mic B is smoother and warmer in the low mids, which is what I'd expect from a tube-and-transformer circuit and a k47 capsule. Based on that I'm pretty sure that Mic A is the NT1 and Mic B is the U47.

I'm listening on Beyerdynamic DT-250 headphones, FWIW.

As I say, for those who can hear the differences, there was no need for me to identify those audio clips!

Now, whether that difference can justify the price differential is another debate altogether?

(And I was wrong on the price difference -- it's about £10,000 - not £7000!.... Telefunken U-47 )

 

[k brown]

I'd say, the odd way the tube is under powered, and the exact nature of the transformer and the way it's loaded, account for much more than only 20% of the U47's sound.

 

[HerbertR]

I would go with Poctops Dual PCB with the PERFECT shopping cart from Mouser US with all Parts incl the PSU Parts + Hammond Case, the authentic looking Micbody from china for under 150 USD incl. the schockmount, good General Electric 407 Tubes from DB Tubes in Canada, the Reed Relais from RS Electronic, Transformer from AMI, Cinemag, UTM..... , as for capsules there are a lot of options - Arienne Audio with the Flat 47 is definitly a superb worldclass choise at a fantastic great price, Thierschs M7 from German or 3U M7 Capsules also known as excellent butter sounding pieces and IMO affordable.. , all options below 1000 Euros...

 

[OneRoomStudio]

At this point, I think building a "U47" is a bit like building a "Stratocaster." There are many different versions out there (originals, clones, reissues, 'soud-alikes,' etc.). It's really a collection of components. There is no specific "U47" sound, other than the generalities of a mic made with certain components.

-An M7 or K47 has a different midrange than something like a CK12
-The spherical headbasket contributes to some resonances
-The tube used (whether VF14 or substitute) generally contributes some harmonic content
-The output transformer often adds some low-mids "weight"

I think that's about as specific as you can be about how a U47 sounds.

Beyond that, you should build and tune to your preference and forget about trying to achieve some mythical "perfect." If you like a little more top-end lift, you might want to use a K47 instead of an M7. If you like the low-end to be a little tighter, I found that the Cinemag CM-2461NiCo has a tighter/clearer low-end compared to an AMI BV8Classic.

All-in-all though, try to use high-quality components if you want a mic that will hold up to repeated use, and make sure your solder and assembly work is neat and well-thought-out. If you do those two things, you'll end up with a nice mic no matter what.

 

[gyraf]

I have a u47 (real, functional, kk47, VF14) and I find it somewhat overrated. Yes, for certain types of vocals it's stellar - but for that price...?

For the longest time we had two u47's in our studios, but equipped with CK12 capsules - those capsules somehow felt much more suitable for that design

/Jakob E.

 

[rock soderstrom]

I have a u47 (real, functional, kk47, VF14) and I find it somewhat overrated. Yes, for certain types of vocals it's stellar - but for that price...?

I think the members @gyraf and @rogs are right, an original U47 is disproportionately expensive. The pure added production value, if it really exists, cannot justify the horrendous price. The real differences in the recording on tape don't justify it, the technical differences to other high-quality microphones are simply too small.

If you run a renowned top studio and also have to generate unique selling points for the sale/rental your services offered, things may look different. High-quality vintage microphones with history and aura can make all the difference here.

 

[tomas.borgstrom]

I have a u47 (real, functional, kk47, VF14) and I find it somewhat overrated. Yes, for certain types of vocals it's stellar - but for that price...?

For the longest time we had two u47's in our studios, but equipped with CK12 capsules - those capsules somehow felt much more suitable for that design

/Jakob E.

I agree to, U47 has a unique sound but limited. M49 is more versatile and U67 is even more versatile but more complicated to build. The K67 capsule is also easier to copy so the clones sound closer to the original Neumann compared to M7 and K47.

The original U47 and all the other classic condensor microphones we are cloning is built with parts of the highest quality. To get the best result you will have to start there.

 

[Cqwet Dbdfte]

...history and aura...
Belief is a very powerful thing.
Audiophillies shun double blind tests, the uncertainty upsets the emotional confirmation bias, $600 purple fuses, anybody?
When eye appeal and reading provocative litterature guides the emotions I smell a rat.