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G-Sun

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 20, 2011
Messages
980
Location
Norway
I'm rather new to DIY and this forum.
After diving into the subject and the way of doing things, I must say:

It's really not easy to find the information I look for here.
Nice of you to have the meta-threads, and when it leads to a post started and maintained by an experienced person in order to help others, it works fine.

However:
- Half of the links are dead (Seems like you've changed the structure of the forum or something)
- Many (most?) links leads to a normal user-ask-for-help on a topic, relevant info may be found on page 15 or something, in the middle between two guys telling each other what they got for Christmas.
- I've gotten many answers like: "It's on the meta xx", and it's just so many links, to so many in-depth-technical documents (those that are not like above, that is). Fine, some day I might need that pile of links and that in-depth information. But as a newbie a just need a few simple answers to my simple questions.
(Ok if there is no simple answers, I need to be told so)

I understand long-time users gets tired of the same questions over and over, but, are you sure the information gathered here are newbie-friendly?

And then: There are some people here, that's really willing to walk that extra mile to help others and make this a nice place. You know who you are. Thanks a lot!  :D
 
I still consider myself a newbee as well. I am on this forum for about a year and a half and I have just finished my first project. And yes, the info is for newbees difficult to find. Yes, sometimes you have to read a lot of pages. Yes, some people are very willing to help, and some seem a lot less interested in doing so. Especially for someone without the background and with a different native tongue like me.
There is a place however without all of those problems. Quite a few of them. They are called webshops. You can go online and order what you want. They keep most of the time very well track of the information on the products. Quite often you can call or email or even chat with them, and they will provide you with information. You want a Neve 1073? Or a Pultec style EQ? No problem. Go online and buy them. Things can't get any easier.
Oh, but you do not want to spend 1500 euro on a 1073? Or whatever enormous amount on a pultec clone? Makes sense. Maybe you even enjoy putting the stuff together yourself. Makes even more sense. There are several communities for that, and this happens to be one of the better. It is a DIY community. That stands for Do It Yourself. Community stands for a group of people who share in this case a common hobby. Hobby as in that they enjoy it and do not make money out of it.
People on here post information on how to build projects. or how to help you trouble shoot problems in building or designing. Because they enjoy doing so. Not because they are paid. You have no right to anything. everything you get here, every bit of help or information on here is a gift. Instead of asking for gifts, I think it would suit you to appreciate what is already here. If you do not want to read about what we gave each other for Christmas, go to a webshop and order something. And I know it is difficult having to read to a lot of pages that you hardly understand. Doing that half of the time here. But you will learn. Yourself, remember? Coming in here and starting your first post with the comment that you are not going to read "all" of the 19 pages of the EQP1 project is offensive. Even if you do not have a clue about how forums work. If I see how you have been answered to that post, I think you got treated with lots more respect than you gave. To then start complaining that all the information you want is not nicely presented is even worse. Be glad the information is here at all. That people who know so much more than we do are here in their free time to post information for us newbees to find. Respect them by trying to find information first (that is by reading). If you do not wish to do so, go to a webshop. Let the smarter people on here come up with interesting projects and let them help people who actually took the trouble to read first. Show some gratitude that a place like this exists instead of nagging that it does not suit your needs. After you have done that, I am sure that people will actually listen to you if you have comments on how to make this a better place. You seem like a smart and funny guy from what I read in between your posts. Go and act like one.

please let me know if I am way out of my league here... I am out of ritalin and acted on impulse!
   
 
This isn't a newbie friendly forum. It's a do it yourself forum with folks that help each other out.

Some of projects i've built i've had to search and read for WEEKS on end....here, google, wikipedia, friends, etc. Till three in the morning, till i couldn't stay awake any longer, keep my eyes open...day after day...night after night.

If you like the idea of building yourself some good gear, help yourself first, then help yourself some more, then blow a few things up...then help yourself a bit more...then others will probably help you...because you'll have some relevant questions by then. ymmv.
 
good points.

I must agree, you have to put in some more time. that's all there is to it.
many here are happy to try and help or just encourage people who are starting out in this as an interest, but half of the satisfaction of DIY is 'doing it yourself'.

requests for instant remedies/walkthroughs etc. maybe justified if they were offered as part of the kit you bought, but the people here aren't getting paid to answer questions.
its kind enough of the smarter folks to have put many of their projects out there in the first place. especially the ones who provide opportunities like group buys/price breaks on their pcb's, etch files, schematics and then even go on to spend their free time offering assistance with no attempt to make any profit.

I dont think DIY is really for people who are lazy or too busy to work it out. you just need some patience and to invest some time. or go out any buy one.
Take a look through the gssl or 1176 thread, thats about 3-5 days worth. each. but i'm sure many satisfied builders would agree it is worth the read :)

I think you will feel a lot more comfortable when you know enough about a project to ask less ambiguous questions.
Its also quite humbling to realise the patience that those before you have displayed for years already.
 
desol said:
Some of projects i've built i've had to search and read for WEEKS on end....here, google, wikipedia, friends, etc. Till three in the morning, till i couldn't stay awake any longer, keep my eyes open...day after day...night after night.

If you like the idea of building yourself some good gear, help yourself first, then help yourself some more, then blow a few things up...then help yourself a bit more...then others will probably help you...because you'll have some relevant questions by then. ymmv.

This is what it takes.  If you want a super easy forum with everything in it's right place then somebody has to do all that work filing and categorizing info, is someone else's time worth less than yours?

The beauty of this place is the interesting twists and turns you tale when looking for an answer.
 
Hm.. thanks for your answers.
What to say. Seems like I've experienced a web-culture-crash. Coming from Reaper Forums and the like, we meet newbies with all the information they want.
Someone don't know the difference between a guitar jack and a line jack, ok, we tell them.
For the usual questions there are User Manual and a wiki (where a lot of special stuff is described as well).
(The author of the user manual get paid some peanuts, the auther of the wiki is everyone)

You know what? I'll walk that extra mile to see your point of view. Because, that's the only thing that we'll work for me. LOL

I see your point:
- No one is paid to present any kind of information.
Totally true
- DIY is Do It Yourself. Yes, but to what degree, that's the question. Finding information myself, yes hopefully.
- We're lucky to have clever guys sharing their projects, PCBs and schematics. Yes, really, really!

Now, I have to note that you're not willing to discuss the issues I brought up.
I've honestly shared my experience, and I'll leave it at that.

Peace
 
Well reaper forum might be different since it is mostly on one subject, the software and using it for a purpose. This forum is about audio electronics which is a bit broader spectrum. Plus in order to understand audio electronics you should have knowledge of electronics in general. Plus it requires a lot more than electronics to build something. You need tools, skills to use the tools, knowledge of parts, trouble of sourcing the parts and so on. Expect many tens of hours of invested time to finish your first project.

Now, imagine every single user asking same questions you have asked (about enclosures, particular projects). A lot of that stuff can be found out just by googling or looking around a night or two. In general, People don't seem to have the patience anymore... nor the time. It is easier to type couple of lines on public forum and wait couple of hours for answers that might or might not be the answers you are looking for than find and read the information from the web propably a lot faster and judge yourself. Judging your self is the way to learn and that is why you don't get the answers in this forum like you might have in other forums. People that are here to learn want you to learn, mostly, and the ones who aren't here to learn cannot help you with your questions.
 
Told you he is a clever and funny guy. He will get there. Good news for you G-sun. I am starting a feeler for dedicated mid section for the poor men's eqp1. I've seen you you are interested in that. I know just about as little about the subject as you... let's stick together and make some great sounding eq's and document it for newbee's like us! :)
 
Jeah, that is the spirit :)

Here is one attempt to somehow organise the info on this forum and it is a commercial endeavor, don't know if it is helpfull or not.
http://www.diyrecordingequipment.com/

Also, another try out here that didn't get that much lift.
http://wiki.nimbleswitch.com/Main_Page

Now there is the tag system as the latest try to categorise the content but the truth is there is a lot of data here and it takes about a year to get used to the flow of the forum ;)
 
I think another distinguishing aspect of this community, is that it tends to be made up of people who like to find answers to their own questions. Those who are more inclined to doing things by the book with a step-by-step guide (or are more pressed for time) are well serviced by people like Hamptone, Seventh Circle, FiveFish, ClassicAPI, JLM, PAiA, Sound Skulptor, me (DIYRecordingEquipment), etc. I started my site because I did feel like there was a need for a more accessible "intro" to the DIY world. But after a certain point, of course, you either choose to go with one of the aforementioned full-kit providers or get lost in this excellent forum, build some stuff that doesn't work at first, and learn a whole sh*tload more.

For better or worse, that's why I feel like this forum isn't as "newb friendly" as it could be--cuz the people who are here are here because they like to do crazy amounts of research and learn things themselves.
 
erikb1971 said:
Told you he is a clever and funny guy. He will get there. Good news for you G-sun. I am starting a feeler for dedicated mid section for the poor men's eqp1. I've seen you you are interested in that. I know just about as little about the subject as you... let's stick together and make some great sounding eq's and document it for newbee's like us! :)
Hey! You're my man :)  (Thanks!) Yes, interested in a mid-section for the PMEqP1.
It's not gonna be my first project so I can wait a little, and see hoe things evolve
 
tmuikku said:
Jeah, that is the spirit :)

Here is one attempt to somehow organise the info on this forum and it is a commercial endeavor, don't know if it is helpfull or not.
http://www.diyrecordingequipment.com/
Yes, visited that site many times. Very newbie-friendly.
Also, another try out here that didn't get that much lift.
http://wiki.nimbleswitch.com/Main_Page
Well, nice to see. I would certainly appreciate a wiki like that. Just a little overview like this http://wiki.nimbleswitch.com/LabNotebook:Community_Portal is very helpful for people like me.

Now there is the tag system as the latest try to categorise the content but the truth is there is a lot of data here and it takes about a year to get used to the flow of the forum ;)
Yes, that's why I ask questions in the forum. It's not that hard to find information when you know what to search for and where and how to search for it. That's what newbies don't know.
 
Meathands said:
I think another distinguishing aspect of this community, is that it tends to be made up of people who like to find answers to their own questions. Those who are more inclined to doing things by the book with a step-by-step guide (or are more pressed for time) are well serviced by people like Hamptone, Seventh Circle, FiveFish, ClassicAPI, JLM, PAiA, Sound Skulptor, me (DIYRecordingEquipment), etc. I started my site because I did feel like there was a need for a more accessible "intro" to the DIY world. But after a certain point, of course, you either choose to go with one of the aforementioned full-kit providers or get lost in this excellent forum, build some stuff that doesn't work at first, and learn a whole sh*tload more.

For better or worse, that's why I feel like this forum isn't as "newb friendly" as it could be--cuz the people who are here are here because they like to do crazy amounts of research and learn things themselves.
Is http://www.diyrecordingequipment.com/ your site? Very nice indeed. Yes, I ordered a Hamptone HJFP2 and are building it now. Think it's a good start-project for a guy like me. Your site was very helpful for picking that project. Thanks!
 
Thanks for all your replies!

Basically the information I search for is:
- What can be built as a DIY-project for the average builder?
-- What are the popular projects? What are their features?
- What kind of sound-quality could I expect?
- How expensive is it?
-- Buying the parts?
-- Shipping and VAT-handling?
-- Getting the tools needed?
- How difficult is it?
- Do I have to expect a lot of troubbles and problem-solving?
- What kind of knowledge is needed?
-- To choose pcb, psu and case.
-- To choose parts?
-- To get parts?
-- Safty and fire?
-- Building, soldering, connecting?
- How do I get a nice looking unit?
-- What's the options and costs?

So, at this moment I'm after a overview of the subject.
Thus special-case trouble-shooting and in-depth scientific papers is not what I'm looking for right know :)

Maybe this forum is not the best place to find what I'm looking for. That's what I have to find out.

Have a wonderful day!
 
I'll start, maybe someone can add more and put to meta or something.

- What can be built as a DIY-project for the average builder?
* If you find a help thread for the project and there is finished builds found (go to the end of the build thread and browse couple of pages back and you'll know if anyone has actually built it). Check what kind of problems people have if they have any. Problems with PCB indicate it is not for beginners.
* If you don't know how to wire mains transformer or don't know how to wire controls and connectors without wiring guide one should read more or build a kit with a building manual first.

-- What are the popular projects? What are their features?
* What you see in The Lab on couple of first pages, or if the project help thread has tens of pages of discussion.
* Features: You should be able to know if the project is preamp or eq or whatnot. Try googling the project name. If there is photos look the front panel.

- What kind of sound-quality could I expect?
* As good as you can build. Depends on what components you use and you know how to use them and if you know how to keep hum and buzz out. The kits around generally have good or excellent sound quality with the parts they list. What is sound quality? You will develope personal preference by trying out different transformers and capacitors etc. in time. The circuit topology will affect most how it sounds. Changing capacitors and resistors don't affect that much (at least don't buy very expensive parts if you can get cheap, unless you have heaps of money). Aim for low noise and finishing the unit without bankruptcy.

- How expensive is it?
* Bulk Chassis + powersupply components generally add up to 100€ or more.
* Miscelaneus bits and pieces (wire, screws, connectors, stickers, new tools) can add easily tens of euros.
* Transformers are the most expensive stuff. As are discrete operation amplifiers (DOA), some tubes, Grayhill brand rotary switches, meters... Sometimes the PCB might cost over 100e.
* Only few projects cost less than 200e to finish and most are more than 500e per box. Depends what parts you use and how much of it is recycled televisions and so on. No answer here. Expect to spend several hundred euro.
* DIY is not cheap. If you go to audiophile foolery you can douple or triple your cost. If you count your working hours DIY is more expensive than buying ready made units. DIY is a hobby and shouldn't be judged by the cost. Be sure to keep good notes what you have done so after 1 to 40 years your unit breaks down you can still fix it ;)

-- Buying the parts?
* Mouser and digikey you can find most of the electronic parts. Meters, transformers, some switches, some potentiometers (rev log for example), tubes, chassis, custom front panels need to be bought elsewhere (look White market, tube amp stores etc.).
* Usually I buy tubes from ebay, passive and active parts from Mouser or some local electronics store, transformers depending on the project, meters from white market or black market here at groupdiy.com. Frontpanels from White Market or do my own. Chassis from local store or for example from modushop.biz in Italy. Knobs from Farnell, Banzai music, recycled from old kitchen aid, what ever you like ;) Most often it takes at least 2-5 different sources for parts depending on project of course.
* Combine parts of two projects to save on bulk and postage.
* Tip: Don't get greedy, buy parts only one or two projects not for 10 projects since that way you'll end up 10 half finished projects instead of two finished ;)

-- Shipping and VAT-handling?
* Order from outside EU to EU you'll pay customs and VAT. If your parcel is small there is no customs and VAT. Customs are from 1-2% here in finland, VAT here is 23%. You'll pay customs and VAT for the shipping as well.

-- Getting the tools needed?
* Soldering iron, solder, wrench or some third hand to keep parts still while soldering, some metalworking tools such as power drill, drill bits (unibit for bigger holes). Maybe hole punch for XLR. Screwdrivers, pliers etc. You notice when you need more tools and can then go to local hardware store and buy one.

- How difficult is it?
* More wiring = more difficult
* Poor PCB layout = more difficult
* Less documentation = more difficult
* The most difficult thing might be the metal work and trouble shooting if you don't have enough support. Check every solder joint you do and triple check all wiring! It is a lot of work to trouble shoot non working unit. Don't hurry, take it easy and quadruple check everything!! Measure all resistors, check orientation of electrolytics and tantalums, semiconductors... Do couple of projects and you'll find it out yourself ;)

- Do I have to expect a lot of troubbles and problem-solving?
* Yes if you are not careful
* Yes if you don't have detailed instructions nor experience about similar projects
* Yes if you don't know grounding concepts
* The more parts you have, the more wiring you have, the more changes to do a mistake. Be patient, check everything you do, concentrate, take your time.
* If you run into problems, breath and start troubleshooting in a logical manner to accurately spot the error. Consult the help thread before starting another since most propably some one else has ran into same or similar problems before.

- What kind of knowledge is needed?
-- To choose pcb, psu and case.

* PCB you can buy. People who have provided PCB's to manyu projects do good PCBs. Check out if the PCB is the first version they have often some minor issues. Second batch, much better (propably). Read help thread, all problems are found there if any. You can roll your own PCB. Check out PCB software and google about how to make PCB layout. Simple projects you can do on veroboard.
* PSU: depends on the project. There are plenty of examples, just search and read.
* Case: Experience. Measures what will fit into what enclosure. Bigger enclosure is easier to work with but take more space in your rack / table. Check out what other people use. Tube projects are generally 2u high or more. Some fit into 1u so no rules here either. Aluminium is easier to work with than steel. Full aluminium cases are expensive so most often only the frontpanel is aluminium. Sometimes the back panel as well. Full aluminium encolusers are more expensive than steel counterparts but they don't rust. Steel provides better shielding (was it magnetic or electrical or both? home work for you to find out :)

-- To choose parts?
* Experience. Read a lot. Check out BOMs (parts list for the project, bill of materials ?) and compare to the PCB and schematics. Most trouble will come from choosing right type and size of capacitors I think.

-- To get parts?
* Just order from your favourite source some of which are already listed above somewhere.

-- Safety and fire?
* This is your own risk. Read a lot and ask. One hand in pocket. Wear safety classes. Always keep power cord disconnected when working with the project. If it is a tube project the PSU capacitors can hold lethal charge several minutes after disconnecting the power cord! Check with multimeter there isn't any voltage left in big capacitors before you start poking. READ A LOT. I'm not responsible. Maybe some link for resource here?

-- Building, soldering, connecting?
* Youtube, instructables. Google is your best friend. Some tips can be found from the forum some times. Check meta.
* Molex and screw type PCB connectors are the most used, try googling. Most often you can use the same parts (hole spacing in PCB)
* Use shielded wire, twist wires when possible to minimize loop area (varying magenetic field going through a loop will introduce current to that loop). Read how you should hook up the shield in the shielded wire. Check rane notes about hooking up stuff http://www.rane.com/library.html

- How do I get a nice looking unit?
* Take your time for the assembly and plan properly. Measure thrice and drill once. Get some front panel engraved. Depends if you have taste for good looking units :D
* for drilling, use smallest bit you have and gradually use next drill size until you are on your target size hole. Too big drill bit will wander and your hole will end up off. Use center punch to make the first dent in the correct spot.

-- What's the options and costs?
* If options are not listed, ask. If the project "owner" sells PCBs or anythign he'll help you gladly. Otherwise only experience tells you what you can do.
* From 0 to 1000000, depends how many liters of snake oil you want to have.

Free tips:
* Aim for durability and low noise, this is the benefit doing it your self.
* It takes a lot of effort to finish a build. Keep good notes so you know what is in your box. This way you are able to repair it after several years or revisit the build you started last year.
* Build stuff you need, not what you want. This keeps you motivated and gives the most satisfaction eventually.
* Concentrate on one or two builds at a time so you'll get something finished. There is many half built projects in black market.
* Keep your stuff organised so you can build / order parts when ever you have time. These aren't one week projects here...
* My projects from start to finished unit have lasted a year or more. My pockets are empty so one month I buy transformers, one month the chassis and so on...
 
There is no second place in the cyber space like GroupDIY. The amount of invaluable information here is pretty amazing--all you need to do is just reach. Many high end and boutique manufacturers are hanging here, even more are constantly lurking. If you'd like to learn something then doing homework is in order. If people see you have done it then they always ready to help.

In my 12 years on board (including previous TT) I've seen people here going from newbies to full scale manufacturers... 

Best, M
 
G-Sun said:
Is http://www.diyrecordingequipment.com/ your site? Very nice in deed. Yes, I ordered a Hamptone HJFP2 and are building it now. Think it's a good start-project for a guy like me. Your site was very helpful for picking that project. Thanks!

Thank you! I'm so glad to hear that. The HJFP2 was my first project, too. Scott was extremely gracious with my newbie questions, and it's still my #1 preamp for vocals and bass.
 
tmuikku said:
I'll start, maybe someone can add more and put to meta or something. [...]
Wow! I didn't quite expect anyone to actually answer all those questions at once. You're brilliant!
Now, this has to be available to all newcomers.

I can:
- Edit my first post, add this. And add what others have to say.
or
- Should I put it anywhere else? Like the wiki: http://wiki.nimbleswitch.com/
or
- Ask Peterson to implement it on his site http://www.diyrecordingequipment.com/newbies/

What do you think?

If it's me that's gonna be editing it, I'll strive for simplicity.

 
I've started a DIY Newbie overview (FAQ) in The lab-forum. Please check out and add to the subject.

Second: I see in my thread-start here that I've sort of said that not so many are willing to help out newcomers in this forum. I'm sorry! I'm sure that's not the case.
What I see though is that the format and limitations of this site/forum makes it very hard to consolidate useful information. So, the information in some cases is very hard to access.
If there was some kind of wiki/Drupal/Joomla structure here I think it would be much easier for everybody.
- To collect and consolidate useful/general information
- To edit it, individually and as a community
- And to access it for newcomers and experienced users.
Of course the forum is the heart of this site and should not be altered, but many things could be done much easier within another web-format.

My 3,5Ohm.. no I mean cents :)
 

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