Midi Mute Automation

[SIXTYNINER]

After a search ( with the search option )
seems that no thread about midi mute automation here around...

so started this (as well) ,

the automation project would like to be the "fet" type (no vca)

the mute function would work by a simple midi command "note on-off" ,
in this way a single midi channel is required ,
in case of midi delays by overflow ,
split/divide the number of channels to command in different midi channels ,

Hardware :
Based on a *small pcb for each ch strip
(easy and fast to replace in case of issues)
to place in some custom way on the ch strip pcb
or in the console chassis near the ch strip ,
connected to a *mainboard pcb
that have midi connectors (1 in - 1 out - 1 thru if required)
for connect with midi the automation mainboard to the computer midi interface
( usb require driver updates each time OS change , excessively frequent recently ) ,

and a remote *commands little box with panel ,
to place and have underhand somewhere on the top or aside of the console ,
connected with a cable to the mainboard ( wireless bluetooth ? not bad if easy to insert),
with a little display and necessary push buttons for manage the basic functions
like those made in the past ,
fitted on analog consoles like Soundcraft "Ghost" - "Spirit Studio Auto" ,
Soundtracs "PC-Midi" - "Quartz" - "Solo Auto" , DDA DMR ,
Allen & Heath Saber - Gs Series , Fostex 2412 , and similar ... ,

like :
patch load , save , delete , up-down scroll ,
midi channel setting , etc .. ,
also single patch or full memory transfer send and receive from-to computer
via midi exclusive or midi cc messages for backups-restore ,
also for save the automations patches in a midi track inside the song , in case of mainboard memory issues ,
with 99/128 or more patches memory allocations (each patch include a scene of the ch mutes settings) ,

something else ?

any info , help , scheme , docs , etc.. about
is so welcome !

thanks in advance as always !

 

[zamproject]

Hi

Have a look at midibox for software and hardware at digital/logic side.
The only thing that can be "problematic" is the control signal that drive your fet mute, ideally you'll go with optocoupler.
I think the best way to handle data/memory is to use MCU/HUI protocol (midi) so the DAW take care of this.

Now the question... why this ? do you playback from tape ?

Best
Zam

 

[JohnRoberts]

Back last century as part of my job with Peavey/AMR we had some midi automation support solutions.

One nice midi mute solution was an accessory sku with 6 or 8 relays that could be opened or closed with midi instructions, IIRC we used the Syncontroller a SMPTE tape machine syncronizer that could be programmed to pop midi program changes based on rolling through SMPTE time cues.

Peavey was not the go to source for midi automation so many otherwise usable products were overlooked.

JR

 

[SIXTYNINER]

Hi Zam and thanks for the post ,
i know the very nice moving fader automation you built ,
and again compliments about !

also thanks about for the MidiBox "World" tip
i know that "world" , and all very nice projects built with ,
( Daw controllers also with Hui , the "Sequencer" , the "Sid" , and others)
unfortunately too many "incomplete" threads ,
so long time for answers , or no answers ,
not for who don't own enough about programming and handling the "C",
if it had good video tutorials , it would be more widely used ,
anyway it could be the control part of the midi mute project ,

about mix with playback from tape to analog console
(.. then to ad converter a.k.a. "AAD" , old school still the best ! )
unfortunately no chance about at the moment ,
even if a nice 24 tracks 2 inches Studer can only add "wellness" to the sound ,

and about : why this ,

only for give a chance to who own an analog console
without any type of automation ,
to improve it as well ,
better keep the unused channels muted when not needed ,

in the past midi mute automation was also called automation of poor
can we call the project : the poor midi mute automation ?

anyway it is no profit project ,
( ... if you like donate to groupdiy as support )

... searching online found some old "add on" device
like Niche vca automation that run simply connecting it to console inserts ,
same of the old Mackie "Ultra" , built for the Mackie 8 bus consoles ,

also found the LA Audio midi mute automation that work with fet
(better than vca) and as the other above wired with console inserts too .

this is what ,
thanks again for the post .

 

[zamproject]

Hi

unfortunately too many "incomplete" threads ,
so long time for answers , or no answers ,

I agree midibox forum is almost hibernating since the creator take a break, but the website have all info and data.
The easier is to use the MB_NG version of the software, no deep programming needed, just friendly language in a config file.

better keep the unused channels muted when not needed ,

So the reason of this is only to have better S/N ratio ?

I'm not sure the benefit will cover the spent energy of the design.

That's just my opinion, but before automation (tks for the compliment) If I really had noise issue I can't fix by DAW mute (due to heavy gain at inserted comp for example) I just do manual mute at mixdonwn for the very few problematic chanel, and if manually impossible, I just build the mixdown by step.
Now with automation, I never use the mute part of it (at mixdown)

I think your project will have way better utility if you combine 4 or 8 patchable VCA

Best
Zam

 

[SIXTYNINER]

I agree midibox forum is almost hibernating since the creator take a break, but the website have all info and data.
The easier is to use the MB_NG version of the software, no deep programming needed, just friendly language in a config file.

MB NG is a very nice evolution of the previous version of MB

So the reason of this is only to have better S/N ratio ?

keep the LR bus most clean as possible ,
channel/track volume can be automated inside the DAW
then the analog console channel fader have to be placed at the max volume
that the track will reach during the mix
and it must stay open in that position from the start to the end ,
even if it has to play only for few seconds ,

I'm not sure the benefit will cover the spent energy of the design.

much probably you are right ,
but there are so many guys that own and love their old analog console
and mix with it , unfortunately without any type of automation ,

it is so true that the type of automation that everyone would like to have
for their analog console would be the moving fader type with double control
audio volume and DAW remote control simultaneously and separately ,
obviously with fader automation status controls: Off , Read , Write , Overdub ,
and the 4 push buttons for : Ch Sel , Solo , Mute , Rec Arm ,


but as you could see by yourself
seems that there is no way to have it at a relative low cost
(pcb , parts , faders , hardware and software assembly & settings , installation , etc... , so lots of stuff )

and seems also that there is no way to get an used old one
that can be modified/customized with a low cost ,

like for example the Mackie "Ultra"
which would already have the dedicated control software ,

not even cannibalizing an old used but full working remote control ....

there would be other way about ?

 

[Tubetec]

I've been thinking about a simple midi controlled record cue light recently as well as control of a 'record' mode on external equipment .
I found the Midi solutions relay ,
http://www.midisolutions.com/MIDI Solutions Relay.pdfHas a simple command line programming software tool with it .

Heres another option that might be of use ,
https://www.exp-tech.de/en/modules/relais/8227/midi-rly08-8-relay-0-dimmer

 

[NOON]

Douglas Self has some very good FET mute circuits in his small signal design book. Controlling them should be pretty easy, I remember designing a MIDI command decoder using 74 TTL logic back in the 90s. Should be far easier with an arduino etc. If you mapped the channels to notes you could presumably just have a MIDI track in your DAW that plays in sync with the track, no drivers required.

 

[JerryPbury]

I have one of these. Is this the type of midi mute your suggesting?
http://www.muzines.co.uk/articles/studiomaster-pro-line-gold/766

 

[SIXTYNINER]

....... etc. If you mapped the channels to notes you could presumably just have a MIDI track in your DAW that plays in sync with the track, no drivers required.

Thanks for post !
probably it is the most simple concept
as the midi events track do not have to drive a keyboard or expander
that have notes polyphony limit ,

also no control panel is required for manage mute patches memory storage ,
only a mainboard unit with midi connections
that drive the cards on channel strips ,
as the mute status is activated by note on-off inside the sequencer track
no dedicate mute switch on ch strip is required ,
only an additional led light for indicate the status is enough ,
( led light on=ch muted/closed , led light off=ch open )

the mute switch already present in the ch strip remains functional
as a simple additional control option ,
(better if pre of the midi mute automation)

 

[SIXTYNINER]

I have one of these. Is this the type of midi mute your suggesting?
http://www.muzines.co.uk/articles/studiomaster-pro-line-gold/766

That desk if the version with MCM option have midi mute automation
and seems that it work with note on-off mode from a midi track ,
the thing to know is if the mute is controlled with "fet" or vca ,

and if it is the model without the midi mute automation ,
as also other consoles ,
A.f.a.i.k. unfortunately no more "plug on" midi mute automation bundles
available to buy around : (
( .... reason why of this thread ) ,

so the insert TRS option is available on each ch(as normally) ,
the easy one would be like the one that produced by LA Audio
with a rackmount box Main Unit , connected/wired to the mixer inserts ,
and to the computer DAW with midi interface ,
the midi mute scenes saved as patches in the memory of the Main Unit
and also as for the old midi mute automations of the past... ,
changed by midi program change command
programmed on a midi track of the DAW sequencer .

And as important part of the topic is also the final cost of this option ,
in case of a diy kit with cards to add to each ch strip ,
a technician with enough knowledge of what as to be done
and relative cost is required (if not the owner of desk) .

 

[Newmarket]

Back last century as part of my job with Peavey/AMR we had some midi automation support solutions.

One nice midi mute solution was an accessory sku with 6 or 8 relays that could be opened or closed with midi instructions, IIRC we used the Syncontroller a SMPTE tape machine syncronizer that could be programmed to pop midi program changes based on rolling through SMPTE time cues.

Peavey was not the go to source for midi automation so many otherwise usable products were overlooked.

JR

Back then I recall that Peavey had a nice MIDI Fader unit. Name escapes me but we got one in when I worked at Penny & Giles in UK. We designed the P&G MM16 / DC16 products with the linear optical 'faders'. Pretty much the "Rolls Royce" of MIDI "Fader Controllers" at the time if more expensive than my colleague and I envisaged when we took the idea to P&G and subsequently ended up working there.
But I remember using the Peavey product as an example of good EMC design wrt screening etc. We had errr..."issues" with that due to both the mechanical design and pcb layout but we got there in the end.

 

[Newmarket]

for connect with midi the automation mainboard to the computer midi interface
( usb require driver updates each time OS change , excessively frequent recently ) ,

Not sure this avoids the USB / Driver issues - since most computer MIDI interfaces are actually MIDI to/from USB interfaces. Does anyone now make PCI/PCI-e etc MIDI interfaces ? And that wouldn't apply to laptops or small format PCs.
Personally, I like the idea of avoiding the USB aspect but it seems that's how it is ?

 

[SIXTYNINER]

I've been thinking about a simple midi controlled record cue light recently as well as control of a 'record' mode on external equipment .
I found the Midi solutions relay ,
http://www.midisolutions.com/MIDI Solutions Relay.pdfHas a simple command line programming software tool with it .

Heres another option that might be of use ,
https://www.exp-tech.de/en/modules/relais/8227/midi-rly08-8-relay-0-dimmer

Thanks for post !
Both devices are good , and more thanks for the info ,
(probably "daughters" of MidiBox project ?...) ,

unfortunately relay have "clicks & pops" issues on audio signal path ,
reason why the fet choice .

 

[SIXTYNINER]

Not sure this avoids the USB / Driver issues - since most computer MIDI interfaces are actually MIDI to/from USB interfaces. Does anyone now make PCI/PCI-e etc MIDI interfaces ? And that wouldn't apply to laptops or small format PCs.
Personally, I like the idea of avoiding the USB aspect but it seems that's how it is ?

Thanks for the post !
Fortunately still various midi interfaces with USB are available on the market ,
also many ADA audio interfaces like Motu , Rme , M-Audio , and others ,
are provided with classic midi ports ,
and if a laptop with only Thunderbolt port is the DAW ,
there are multi type port adapters with USB , Firewire , SD Card , Ethernet , etc
available , where connect the peripherial .

 

[SIXTYNINER]

Back then I recall that Peavey had a nice MIDI Fader unit.

Peavey PC1600 , was nice at that times .... ,
especially as sound programmer-editor for synths , romplers , etc.. ,

unfortunately the controllers without moving faders
for drive the DAW softwares have very low sense ,

because any time a correction of fader volume/level have to be done
the fader of the controller is not on the same position of the DAW fader ,

same thing for the pots ,
fortunately rotary encoders are invented .

 

[Newmarket]

Thanks for the post !
Fortunately still various midi interfaces with USB are available on the market ,
also many ADA audio interfaces like Motu , Rme , M-Audio , and others ,
are provided with classic midi ports ,
and if a laptop with only Thunderbolt port is the DAW ,
there are multi type port adapters with USB , Firewire , SD Card , Ethernet , etc
available , where connect the peripherial .

Yes-you can get MIDI into a PC - via the interface/adaptor USB or whatever.
But my point is that there remains a reliance on driver/OS/hardware compatibility through generations of OS / USB (or whatever).
You can shift the solution to the interface/adaptor manufacturer but the fundamental issue remains. If support for a particular interface is discontinued then you are liable to have to change (or 'freeze' your system).

 

[Newmarket]

Peavey PC1600 , was nice at that times .... ,
especially as sound programmer-editor for synths , romplers , etc.. ,

Yes - that's it. Thanks.

unfortunately the controllers without moving faders
for drive the DAW softwares have very low sense ,

because any time a correction of fader volume/level have to be done
the fader of the controller is not on the same position of the DAW fader ,

Yes - but same on any non-moving fader VCA based desk automation.
Not everyone prefers moving faders.

same thing for the pots ,
fortunately rotary encoders are invented .

The MM16/DC16 units that I was heavily involved used a linear optical encoder (rubber belt) with (admittedly low resolution) visual led feedback.
I should mention that the cost was multiple times that of the PC1600. And even then the margin was unrealistically low from a commercial angle.

 

[SIXTYNINER]

Yes - but same on any non-moving fader VCA based desk automation.
Not everyone prefers moving faders.

Many VCA automation of the past was with software and graphic view
on monitor ,
obviously less expensive than the moving faders ,

can we say less expensive alternative/compromise
where maximum sound quality was not essential ?
.... like low budget post production ?

 

[SIXTYNINER]

Yes-you can get MIDI into a PC - via the interface/adaptor USB or whatever.
But my point is that there remains a reliance on driver/OS/hardware compatibility through generations of OS / USB (or whatever).
You can shift the solution to the interface/adaptor manufacturer but the fundamental issue remains. If support for a particular interface is discontinued then you are liable to have to change (or 'freeze' your system).

Do you mean that classic midi connections will disappear soon ?