paypal harrassment

[mouse]

yet another paypal getting screwed story.

4 years ago i sold an item on ebay, about 850 dollars. i was moving literally the next day after the end of the auction and cautioned the buyer multiple times through email to have his shipping method taken care of. i warned him over and over that i would be gone and that he needed to arrange pickup.

he made payment, i transferred the money out of the account asap, knowing about all the paypal horror stories.

sure enough, i hear from my folks that the item was not picked up. they are elderly and couldn't manage shipping anyway.

1 week or so later i get contacted by paypal that they are performing a chargeback. i refused to pay back the money, partly because i warned the buyer multiple times of the situation, and partly because i had already moved thousands of miles.

so paypal closes my account, and destroys my ebay account. fine, good riddance.

now 4 years later i get a letter from a collection agency. they are trying to go after a negative balance from a 4 year old defunct paypal account.

i'm sure they will at the very least try to degrade my credit rating. i'm wondering what else they can do to me?

 

[Jean Clochet]

Did the buyer ever get the item?

 

[mouse]

no, the buyer renegged on the sale. he decided he didn't want it after the sale was made.

in the end the item was literally thrown into the trash by movers. it was too expensive for me to move overseas.

if he had been up front i could have made arrangements to have it stored.

 

[sr1200]

I wouldn't consider that harassment.  There's more to the story here i feel.  If the auction stated shipping would happen and you changed it AFTER the auction, the buyer has a right to reneg on the sale.  If the buyer agreed to pickup, but just never picked it up, that's a totally different story, and should be explained to PayPal in such a way along with any supporting documents you may have. (after 4 years, probably would be difficult unless you're like me and never discard an email)

I think they're well within their rights to make the account whole given the circumstances, but you may be able to argue the claim if you kept the correspondence.

 

[Jean Clochet]

OK.  Was just asking because, if the buyer received the item and you could prove it, you'd be OK.
I assume that, since it's Paypal that are chasing you, the buyer got refunded.

I suppose if you could prove that collection of the item within a certain time frame was a condition of the sale, that might help.

I don't know, but, since this was 4 years ago and they've already sold the debt to someone else, I'd think that if Paypal were going to report it to the credit agencies, they'd have done so already.  Maybe take a look at your report if you haven't already.
I don't know the system over there so can't really comment but, over here, you'd probably indeed be liable for the $850 that Paypal refunded the buyer. 

What can they do?  I don't know.  Me, I'd probably settle with them myself so I didn't get hassled and could sleep better but?  FWIW, I think debt collectors might only pay pennies on the dollar for the debts and possibly would settle for half the amount owed or maybe less. 

 

[sr1200]

only problem with that, here in the states, if you settle a debt for lower than its face value, you 1) get taxed on the difference (yes you do) 2) get a nice bruise on your credit report for the next 7 years.

 

[Jean Clochet]

Yeh, I don't know but it could even be the same type of situation here.
I suppose I only mentioned it because I'm assuming that Mouse doesn't have the spare $850 to settle with Paypal.

Without knowing all the details of the sale and the conditions set forth beforehand (if any), I suppose my opinion is that it's an honest attempt to collect and should probably be paid.  That would be the end of it. 
He could also negotiate for removal of any bad credit marks it might have incurred as a condition of payment in full - but I'm sure that's not what he wants to hear 

 

[sahib]

Key is the old correspondence with the buyer. If you kept it, then you produce it to the debt collectors with an explanation. If you can do that then they can not demand anything from you and certainly can not touch your credit rating. However, I would first ask them to produce what sort of evidence they have to claim the debt. You can also find out what the legal time span is after which one can not claim anything (I think it is 7 years in the UK excluding local government charges).

 

[mouse]

there isn't more to the story. i was explicit in the auction that shipping was the buyer's responsibility. the buyer was told multiple times that he had to make arrangements for pickup since he was out of state. i offered to help in any way i could to arrange for the shipping.

he was just a flaky guy who agreed to purchase and then after payment backed out.

there was a paypal dispute, i think, it was a long time ago. i provided the emails and explained to them what the situation was, but of course they sided with the buyer. prior to that i had about 90 transactions with 100 percent positive feedback.

the transactions may even be still there in my old ebay account, but that has been frozen for years.

i doubt that that collection agency would be willing or interested in paypal's rules. maybe i'm off on that? it would be interesting to do what sahib said and ask them what grounds or proof they have of the debt. but it seems like a rigged situation since paypal was the judge and jury and they did refund the guy's money.

since my credit was most likely already affected, i'll probably do nothing. but it would be interesting to know the exact ramifications, and even better to have it go away.

 

[wtmnmf]

it seems like a rigged situation since paypal was the judge and jury and they did refund the guy's money.

Well of course; it is!  They make the rules and you agree to abide by them.  Read the contract and understand it.  If you think the odds are stacked against you, then don't play the game.  It's a big contract, but I bet you wouldn't mind reading it for $850...

since my credit was most likely already affected, i'll probably do nothing.

How did that (burying your head in the sand) work out for you last time?  If you don't see it through to some kind of resolution, then it will always be out there.  Also, you can draft a letter, to be added to your file at the various credit reporting agencies, which counters the claim in the lien.  There is no need to guess, check your credit report.

(Don't make the mistake of handling a legal matter this way!  I was in court when a judge asked someone who didn't show for their original court date, "why?"  The answer was, "I couldn't afford to pay the fine", and the result was a doubling of the fine and jail time.  The next person was there for their court date and said "I can't afford to pay the fine", to which the judge responded "can you pay half?" The answer was "yes", and ten minutes later the fine was paid and the person was on their way home.)


The problem with the auction seems to be that you wanted to change the terms, or add terms, to the transaction via email, rather than modifying the auction itself.  eBay/Paypal cannot very well be expected to verify claims that you make based on email (that you say is valid). You could have stated that the buyer had a fixed period of time to pick up the item, after which, it was forfeit.  If that had been done, I think eBay and Paypal would have sided with you.  Also, you could have refunded the money and sold to the next highest bidder.

Remember - a buyer can reverse course...  The penalty for doing so is negative feedback and loss of eBay privileges, not forfeiture of monies for goods not received!  If a buyer has collected the goods, and you specified a no return policy, and they are unable to raise an objection about the condition of the item or a mismatch to the description, then any attempt by them to remove the funds is a fraud.  Funds can be frozen while the process that buyer and seller have both agreed to (in the user agreements) runs it's course.

A way to come back at eBay/Paypal would have been to put the ball in their court by asking "what did I do wrong, and what was I supposed to have done?"  If they can't show clearly how rules apply, or how you could have proceeded to a fair and equitable outcome for both buyer and seller, then they might very well yield.  In my experience, you want to do this on the phone so that you can engage the person.  These are low paid workers who usually don't mind helping someone - if they can see themselves in that situation.

The only way I can see that you could make it out financially unscathed, is to sue the buyer in small claims court for breach of contract.  That person agreed to pay you.  You agreed to make the item available for collection.  You met your obligation and they did not.  Of course winning in small claims is one thing, collecting is another.

 

 

[r2d2]

All Banks , paypal , ebay , western union , moneygram , etc.....
are all  childrens of the same " mother " f....... 

peace
r2d2

ps
world economy crisis is generated by u.s.a. persons that have got :
tons of $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.... moneys
big cars big houses , jet airplanes, yacht , etc....
and nobody of them are in prison ...

 

[okgb]

It does seem hopeful to expect that going off without a problem at the same time you're
moving , Just saying Murphy's Law and unless you actually got the guy to sign an agreement
counting on someone to be reasonable or responsible  .........................
it's like packing , expect it to be dropped and then you'll be prepared

 

[ramshackles]

Did you not go through ebay disputes, as this, in my experience looks like an easy-win situation for the seller...providing all is as it seems.

You stated shipping was not provided in the auction yes? Not just writing in the description, but by checking 'other shipping method' or pick up only when making the ebay listing.

Then it is just a case of showing ebay your correspondence, they check that the listing is as you say it is and find in favour of you....

 

[Marik]

since my credit was most likely already affected...

How do you know? I would think most likely not, as this way they are losing their main trump.

Make a search for "Fair Debt Collection Practices Act" and have some reading. Make a search for a standard form for a "Cease and Desist Letter" (find a few and then make your own version). Make sure to include a clause about taking legal actions should they affect your credit and then send it certified (otherwise they will just dump it into the trash) to your collection agency.

Most likely in a few years you will receive a similar harrassing note from another collection agency--after the first one has miserably failed with your file they will try to recup some $$$ and most likely sell your case to some other sucker. You just send the similar letter to that one.

Best, M