k brown
Well-known member
Not sure - it was just a dim recollection of some common type of video connector that was gas-tight. Could be it was just the crimps used on coax cable that's gas-tight.
Speaker Selector Switchbox changes audio quality?
- Thread starter canidoit
- Start date
Help Support GroupDIY Audio Forum:
JR said: you are conflating the enmity toward audiophools as an attack on all audiophiles, it is not.
True, that claim has not been made but I get irritated by that term.
No one seems to make that distinction between the terms and it's always coupled with ridicule about the amounts of money they spend. They're not engineers, most are hobbyists who just love music.
Anyway. Enough's enough.
Do you play an instrument?
True, that claim has not been made but I get irritated by that term.
No one seems to make that distinction between the terms and it's always coupled with ridicule about the amounts of money they spend. They're not engineers, most are hobbyists who just love music.
Anyway. Enough's enough.
Do you play an instrument?
radardoug
Well-known member
I'm sure you will have no problem explaining why I'm a purveyor of misinformation. Got evidence?
I'm open to your explanation.
Its right there in the text I posted! I would refer you to any serious relay or switch manufacturers website.
Hey Radar - You're being disrespectful to me in that post. You display the type of arrogance I am talking about. I don't appreciate your underhanded dig. You want to disagree, show everyone the evidence with respect. The only one who looks bad is you.
BTW, I saw nothing you claimed to be in your post but it's in the next post by ccaudio.
In regard to the manufacturer's recommendations, they are no more than that.
Audio covers all three conditions. <.4va, <100ma, and high power.
I made an off label reco, like taking a drug that for an off label purpose where it may be effective where others aren't. If you want to be sure put all three types in parallel.
From ccaudle:
"Gold plated contacts are recommended for dry circuits, which are defined as very low energy. In circuits where the voltage is below 28 volts DC and current is below 100 milliamps (dry circuits), no arc develops as the contacts open or close....."
Apparently you missed my recommendation to TURN THE AUDIO OFF when switching. That eliminates the question of arcing. No arcs when you mute the audio.
"Silver contacts are recommended for electrical levels above 0.4VA. Although silver tarnishes, it is a good conductor and this electrical energy is sufficient to break through the tarnish to give reliable performance...."
If you don't care about room tone and reverb tails these should do nicely after they tarnish.
"...The gold over silver contact material provides a reliable, tarnish free, contact surface for logic level switching. When this same contact material switch is used in power level circuit, the gold plating is removed by contact arcing. If an attempt is then made to use this same switch in a logic level circuit (where no arcing occurs). The low current condition cannot provide adequate contact wiping or cleaning."
TURN THE AUDIO OFF when switching. That eliminates the question of arcing. No arcs when you mute the audio.
Since audio levels come in all shapes and sizes , a nice gold plated switch of adequate current rating, with contacts paralleled up, should work very well. IF YOU MUTE THE AUDIO BEFORE SWITCHING!!
BTW, I saw nothing you claimed to be in your post but it's in the next post by ccaudio.
In regard to the manufacturer's recommendations, they are no more than that.
Audio covers all three conditions. <.4va, <100ma, and high power.
I made an off label reco, like taking a drug that for an off label purpose where it may be effective where others aren't. If you want to be sure put all three types in parallel.
From ccaudle:
"Gold plated contacts are recommended for dry circuits, which are defined as very low energy. In circuits where the voltage is below 28 volts DC and current is below 100 milliamps (dry circuits), no arc develops as the contacts open or close....."
Apparently you missed my recommendation to TURN THE AUDIO OFF when switching. That eliminates the question of arcing. No arcs when you mute the audio.
"Silver contacts are recommended for electrical levels above 0.4VA. Although silver tarnishes, it is a good conductor and this electrical energy is sufficient to break through the tarnish to give reliable performance...."
If you don't care about room tone and reverb tails these should do nicely after they tarnish.
"...The gold over silver contact material provides a reliable, tarnish free, contact surface for logic level switching. When this same contact material switch is used in power level circuit, the gold plating is removed by contact arcing. If an attempt is then made to use this same switch in a logic level circuit (where no arcing occurs). The low current condition cannot provide adequate contact wiping or cleaning."
TURN THE AUDIO OFF when switching. That eliminates the question of arcing. No arcs when you mute the audio.
Since audio levels come in all shapes and sizes , a nice gold plated switch of adequate current rating, with contacts paralleled up, should work very well. IF YOU MUTE THE AUDIO BEFORE SWITCHING!!
radardoug
Well-known member
I am not being disrespectfull. I am pointing out that what you claimed is not in fact true. And I am not going to do your research for you. CCaudle has pointed out some of the factors. Gold in low level circuits is fine. But not in high power circuits. And your suggestion to not operate the switch with audio might be fine for you, but there are people who will not do that.
Brian Roth
Well-known member
Unfortunately, we should not ASSume that the audio will ALWAYS be muted when a speaker-level transfer switch/relay is activated. That actually can impede a workflow. IE toggling between main monitors and HorrorTones <g> while mixing.
Much earlier in this thread I suggested each set of speakers should have a dedicated power amp, with speaker selection done at line level. Many years ago when I was the main guy doing mixdown of jingles at an "ad agency production mill", I would make multiple speaker selection changes while audio was rolling in real time, all within a :30 or :60 second window..
Bri
Much earlier in this thread I suggested each set of speakers should have a dedicated power amp, with speaker selection done at line level. Many years ago when I was the main guy doing mixdown of jingles at an "ad agency production mill", I would make multiple speaker selection changes while audio was rolling in real time, all within a :30 or :60 second window..
Bri
Clearly we disagree on 2 points.
What did you mean by this?: "The fact that you suggest gold plated switches for a speaker controller indicates that yes you are right, there are lots of fools out there!" Seems snarky to me. Please clarify.
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You're right on. But the topic of the thread is "speaker-selector-switchbox-changes-audio-quality" so all I offered was my opinion on how to do it well with DPDT switches as shown in the picture from the OP.
I don't think we were asked to design a switch for all occasions. That's beyond my pay grade as a forum member. However, for a juicy fee. . . .
BTW, just to open up another can of worms, speaker-level hot switching can be done with hi current low on resistance mosfets, IMHO, very cleanly. I've done it and was satisfied in listening tests.
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Brian Roth
Well-known member
Indeed we've gone down many rabbit holes on this thread! Just one more "aside"....when using DPDT toggles to select speaker pairs from a single power amp, be SURE the power amp's design has a "common" connection for the "negative" output for both channels. MANY new-ish amps use a bridging output design, with no "common" connection between the channels.
Bri
Bri
Exactly. Balanced line application UNLESS it's single ended. Balanced introduces an additional set of contacts. DPDT Center off to fully avoid criss cross connections.
Personally I wouldn’t use toggle switches as they are vertical pressure contact and rely on the point contact not being arc burnt or they become unreliable - the rocker assembly inside a toggle also wears and can shed particles eventually that can degrade the contact - I have dismantled many of the hard to get older type ones to clean/repair.
No matter the theory that you shouldn’t switch speakers while running, people will and commonly do so.
The only effect on sound you would get from a switch I would imagine is when it starts to fail - the resistive area and depth through the contact plating, contact to contact, through the mechanism pole arms before coming to the wire is so small that it couldn’t have the sort of effect on sound that would be perceived by a different plating metal being used.
For speaker switching my preference would be heavy duty push to latch or rotary.
A sliding contact such as used in the heavy push slide switches or rotary switches is self cleaning and is usually a silver plated copper alloy. Silver is a better conductor than gold (as is copper) anyway, it just tarnishes due to sulfides in the air if there is copper contained in the alloy - pure silver is actually very slow to oxidise. Many pieces of equipment I have repaired have 50 and 60 year old rotary switches which are open to the air and still are working perfectly - look like brass contact rings in those battleship switches. I think Yaxley was a common type back then - they could be dismantled as well as being constructed to design requirements.
Brian Roth
Well-known member
I agree with the "center off" concept. Reminds me of a switch replacement I had to do several years ago for the speed selection of a "big" Lyrec synchronous motor that was OEM for an old Neumann cutting lathe. The ancient OEM Neumann 4-speed switch was a crazy rotary which had slowly died. Since we didn't need 78 or 16 RPM speeds, I chose the highest current ON-NONE-ON toggle I could find since activating two of the Lyrec motor's winding at the same time seemed to me to be a disaster.
Bri
When a plate comes loose on a rotary you can have all sorts of problems but when toggles fail if the rocker collapses the result can be catastrophic. With centre off there’s a safety gap.
That’s when the bottom of the switch disconnects from the top if the fingers holding the switch together pull apart and both sides are on at the same time
Brian Roth
Well-known member
Here is a speaker switch going wrong....LOL!
Bri (just kidding...)
Bri (just kidding...)
Shoulda put spike suppressors on it - must’ve been a big PA. Reminds me of doing rigging on a Dire Straits concert where the audio and power used the same XLR connector (not a great plan) - a few sub speaker cones leapt out of the fronts of their boxes when 240V AC lines were plugged into them by one of the stage roadies - power on was a bit surprising.
k brown
Well-known member
So, what's the problem with the spkr switch I mentioned in post #23?
None by the look of the switch
Brian Roth
Well-known member
So here's a question that might require it's own thread...
I realize this forum includes folks with MANY levels of requirements for monitor selection switching.
Question: How many sets of monitors are in YOUR studio setup?
I will "spit out" a LARGE setup I once designed/used:
1. Large soffit: UREI 813 pair
2. Nearfields on pedestals in front of the desk, models varied over time; last pair was a (forgotten model) of Tannoys
3. HorrorTones sitting atop the meterbridge.
4. The cheapest small 4" speaker from Radio Shack, driven from a mono sum into a 1 Watt amp and that speaker was installed in the desk's meterbridge. We called it the "Sh!tcan" <g>.
5. Set of large speakers in the rear wall of the control room. Reason? Main writer/composer played keyboards and his rig was behind the desk, facing the engineer and was below the soffit.
6. We experimented with a low powered FM transmitter to transmit to the parking lot for listening in our various automobile systems.
My setup had a selector at the desk that was "interlocked but not locked out" for the various choices. Usually only 1 choice was selected, but when tracking the engineer had the soffits or nearfields on while the speakers in the rear were also on for the keyboardist who was WAY off-axis for speakers at the front of the room.
Crazy, likely unique, requirements....probably not typical in year 2024. Hence my general question: How many speaker choices do YOU use these days....that require a selector?
Bri
I realize this forum includes folks with MANY levels of requirements for monitor selection switching.
Question: How many sets of monitors are in YOUR studio setup?
I will "spit out" a LARGE setup I once designed/used:
1. Large soffit: UREI 813 pair
2. Nearfields on pedestals in front of the desk, models varied over time; last pair was a (forgotten model) of Tannoys
3. HorrorTones sitting atop the meterbridge.
4. The cheapest small 4" speaker from Radio Shack, driven from a mono sum into a 1 Watt amp and that speaker was installed in the desk's meterbridge. We called it the "Sh!tcan" <g>.
5. Set of large speakers in the rear wall of the control room. Reason? Main writer/composer played keyboards and his rig was behind the desk, facing the engineer and was below the soffit.
6. We experimented with a low powered FM transmitter to transmit to the parking lot for listening in our various automobile systems.
My setup had a selector at the desk that was "interlocked but not locked out" for the various choices. Usually only 1 choice was selected, but when tracking the engineer had the soffits or nearfields on while the speakers in the rear were also on for the keyboardist who was WAY off-axis for speakers at the front of the room.
Crazy, likely unique, requirements....probably not typical in year 2024. Hence my general question: How many speaker choices do YOU use these days....that require a selector?
Bri
