headphone amp

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Kev

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 3, 2004
Messages
1,784
Location
Melbourne, Australia
I've never had success with these things.
Just not enough GO.

I'm now looking to small amp chips like the TDA1905 ... 2 for stereo.

Uncompressed drums just need more and more headroom, I guess. The other difficult job is the lead guitarist that wants ... "the amp man ... it's all about the amp" ...
A screaming Marshall with feedback is a very loud thing to get past and still hear the backing track if you are in the same room ... even with fully enclosed headphones.

I did put a set of transducers into a pair of Safety Ear Protector things and they were great BUT I loaned them to another Live Sound Engineer :roll: I must make myself another set.
 
C1 seems un-naturally large. 1uFd ought to be plenty.

At 12V, it will put almost 0.5 watts in 32 ohm phones, which is usually ample (and often overkill).

But in the popular high-impedance phones it "only" makes 50mW, which is often not enough.

On the other hand, ordinary "opamp" chips strain and starve 32 ohm phones, though they sometimes work wonderfully in higher impedance.

I once did some thinking about driving headphones hard. It is all calculation from specs, but gives you something to think about.

http://headwize.com/ubb/showpage.php?fnum=3&tid=2432

In general, if you want to be sure of being able to overpower most headphones, you want as much as 7 Volts RMS, so over 20V total supply voltage. 7V RMS will vaporize low-Z phones, but 25-30 ohms in series makes a remarkably good fit for most headphones' power rating. (Whether this 30 ohms should be inside or outside the feedback loop is an unsolved question.)
 
[quote author="PRR"](Whether this 30 ohms should be inside or outside the feedback loop is an unsolved question.)[/quote]

I vote for outside the fb loop. Otherwise, when the output is loaded down, the feedback will be reduced, the amplifier gain will increase and attempt to source more current into the load... and the limiting function of the resistor will be defeated.
 
Back in the old days of hand-drawing, I made this headphoneamp for our studio:

http://www.gyraf.dk/tmp/Gyraf_headphone_box.PDF

..sorry, pdf only..

It runs on +/-22V, has bootstrapped putput stage and outputs neat signal up to very close to rails. Drives any of our headphones - including 600R types - LOUD..!

Jakob E.
 
Anyone try a burr brown Buf634 as a headphone driver. Seems like it would do a fine job at the task. Perhaps put a nice op-amp ahead of it, and use the 634 in wide bandwidth mode to supply the power. Hmmm maybe I'll add that to my ever growing list of 'must try' projects.

Cheers,

Kris
 
I've been looking at building a headphone out for a project i'm working on myself... you guys may (and only may... no pushing!) want to look at the TPA6110A2 Stereo Headphone Amp.

http://focus.ti.com/docs/prod/folders/print/tpa6110a2.html

It's being targetted at the high-end hifi buffs, but it may be interesting to you guys. I'll probably take a shot at it when I have some spare time.


Take care,

R
 
> It's being targetted at the high-end hifi buffs

Well, it was made for speakers/headphones in laptops. It's fallen out of favor because it needs fat caps, which laptop makers hate.

At maximum voltage, it will put 100mW in 32 ohm WalkMan type phones, which is more than a 2-AA battery Walkman, but not a lot more.

In 300 ohm cans like the Sennheiser 600, it makes a meek 13mW.

It is a good chip for WalkMan-type phones and levels. It isn't heavy-metal drummer stuff, especially with 100 and 300 ohm cans.
 
[quote author="PRR"]In general, if you want to be sure of being able to overpower most headphones, you want as much as 7 Volts RMS, so over 20V total supply voltage. 7V RMS will vaporize low-Z phones, but 25-30 ohms in series makes a remarkably good fit for most headphones' power rating. (Whether this 30 ohms should be inside or outside the feedback loop is an unsolved question.)[/quote]

yep,
I do forget to say things like this.

My amps generaly fit near this 20 volt level. I think my main studio GRUNTER has 28 volts and is in fact a backup module to the secondary monitoring amp in the control room. I may even have one of these amps on main monitoring at the moment but don't tell anyone.

The passive distribution boxes currently have 18 ohm resistors fitted.

As a tech , if you are pressed for time you often find sollutions that are reliable and leave you with a degree of reserve and backup.
Having reserve grunt is obvious ... perhaps all that is needed is a trim pot on the input that only you know is there and you goose this when the deaf band is in then return it to normal when they leave.
Backup means having spare modules or units that you can swap FAST and a couple of spare headphones you can replace cos it is likely they will blow a set. Keep your oldest units for these bands.




[quote author="Rochey"]I've been looking at building a headphone out for a project i'm working on myself... you guys may (and only may... no pushing!) want to look at the TPA6110A2 Stereo Headphone Amp.
[/quote]

??
amp I looking at the right one ?
150-mW Stereo Audio Power Amplifier ... from only 3 to 5 volts
err this looks like it was made for ...
oops - I see PRR has already covered this.

Have a look at the 1905 and tell me what you think.


Repost, just incase people missed it
http://headwize.com/ubb/showpage.php?fnum=3&tid=2432
please read this again people. good stuff
 
i have had success with the meta42 board from tangentsoft. sounds good and drives my phones adequately, tho it may not be burly enough for some. a good deal of thought has been put into these projects, and the critical parts, including PCBs are available.

http://tangentsoft.net/audio/

ed
 
chill out now guys :)

I was merely passing on the message that we've given internally. When I say hi-fi buffs, i mean what you guys would probbaly consider a mid-range hi-fi separate... At least in the UK -- i'd be thinking stuff in the £400 -£500 region.

I completely agree that such low power levels are near useless for uncompressed material whilst your tracking, but for mastered&compressed stuff, I still wouldn't mind using it.

In terms of layout and size - it's fits the bill for me - I have far more fun things to work on that a headphone out that may only be used 1% of the time :)

Finally, I was quite impressed that they'd managed 150mW from 5V - and not just have it sound like a buzzer :)

take care,

R
 
[quote author="Rochey"]Finally, I was quite impressed that they'd managed 150mW from 5V - and not just have it sound like a buzzer [/quote]

yep
could make for a good battery driven belt back headphone driver ...
radio comunication/location/talkback sort of thing. If seperation is good it could be good for left ear, right ear stuff. Some people don't like even a small leakage from one ear to the other.
 
ho ho ho - my sarcasm detector just flew off the deep end.

Whilst this device IS pin for pin with some the National 'buzzer' devices (i can't remember the exact name to be honest) - I've been told (and yes, I admit... being told and actually hearing are different things) that this device is quite good for what it is.

Ahhh screw it... let's fire up some old NE5532's and see how much current we can push them!
Buy some BUF634's while your at it... I have no issue with you guys using Burr Brown parts as well :)

The motto of the story is -- if you can't beat them... Join them... :cool:
 
> the message that we've given internally

Yeah, well, the guys inside have their own view of the world.

It IS good for a 5V amplifier. No doubt about that.

And the world is going 5V. If you can't sell to laptops, look at all the USB sound systems. Couple line inputs, couple mike inputs, sometimes even with 5V jazzed-up to 48V Phantom. But the headphone jack has to live on 3V-5V, unless they want to add a wall-wart. And a cap-output design fits the box, and is simpler than those too-clever bridge-amps the flaptops use now.

And really, in LOTS of situations, 5V is ample. Heck, cassette tape deck headphone outputs were often 0.3V peak. "Nice" in low-Z phones, but a bit faint in 100 ohm phones, and nearly unusable with Senn 600. Even in a quiet room.

But get around live music, especially drummers, and you want 30dB more level. A part-Watt instead of a milliWatt. 250mW seems to be "serious" power in many headphones. At 32 ohms that is 3VRMS, 9V peak-peak. The dirty old LM386 is an old workhorse (I built one into a fully modular synth uh... 25 years ago). But with 100 ohm cans, 250mW needs 5VRMS, 15V p-p. The TPA6110A2 guys will not talk about 15V on the 5.5V-6V-rated part.

> let's fire up some old NE5532's and see how much current we can push them!

Around 60mA peak. Great for 300 ohms and up. OK down to 100 ohms. But in the popular 32 ohm phones they make 60mA*32= 2V peak, 1.4VRMS, 57 milliWatts. Actually a shade less than a 2-AA WalkMan.

So do we keep a LM386 for low-Z use, a 5532 for hi-Z use? Ugh.

If we were talking big-Watts, we might have to (or rationalize our headphones).

But at the part-Watt level, it sure seems we should be able to find a very clean 20-30V part with 150mA-200mA peak output. Yet there is a gap between 20mA-60mA op-amps, 500mA pocket-radio amps, 500mA buffers that need a gain-amp, and the Loudspeaker amps that are way more than we need. We end up with roll-yer-own plans like Jakob's which is fine, but more than just slap-together. Or my overkill headphone amp with four TI TL072 op-amps plus some 3055/2955 power transistors. Or the old standby: a Crown D-75 PA amp with a splitter box.
 
I completely agree ... with every inch of that post.
... from the 5v to the old standby overkill with splitter box.

Please people put your sarcasm and BS detectors aside for the time being and accept that headphones or ear piece can mean radicaly different things to many people.

Above we have talked about music and live music BUT there is a world of that involves television production and IFBs etc ... These ear peices have very different progam in them. My biggest problem is Floor Managers with constant Director and DA ... problem is when a contestant wins and the audience cheers and the PA blasts ... he can't hear the ear piece.

There should be an off the shelf solution .... nope ... but you get that.
 
> I vote for outside the fb loop. Otherwise, when the output is loaded down, the feedback will be reduced, the amplifier gain will increase and attempt to source more current into the load... and the limiting function of the resistor will be defeated.

The clipping level will be the same, whether inside the loop, outside the loop, or in the power rails.

The real question is: do headphones need damping? The jury is out. My limited tests show that some "300 ohm" phones have a 600 ohm lump in mid-bass, which clearly sounds flatter when driven low-Z than hi-Z. But lo-Z can be 30 ohms. I have not yet found any 32 ohm phone with any impedance kinks below 10KHz, so over the main audio range these phones just do not care what the source impedance is. Some have rising impedance over 10KHz, and I can't trust my ears up there. But I do know that the difference one phone to another in the top octave is greater than the uncertainty of that top-octave rise of impedance.

Anyway: at these levels, if the users insist on clipping, the phones are going to fry.

But so will ears. 250 mW in some phones is over 120 dB SPL. If clipping is obvious, average level is around 110dB SPL, and hearing loss WILL result pretty quick.

I figure 250mW is useful only so you NEVER clip, can trust what the headphones are saying. Also because if you must listen at high levels, clipping increases the damage to the phones and the ears.

My own use for over-100mW is mostly a few seconds at a time. I'm in the same room as the band, playing over 100dB SPL, I need to hear the monitor feed apart from the band, many headphones have only a few dB isolation, so I need 110dB SPL. But only over a few loud notes, to check for clipped recording; once I know I'm clean I back-off to much lower gain and level, and just trust the gear.

I built a live-recording headphone amp with 20dB gain and 5V RMS 100 ohm output. It was ample in many situations, but not quite enough with some phones on some gigs. (It was also too-darn-hot Class-A.) I bothered to design and build another with 34dB gain and 6V RMS 55 ohm output. (And a more efficient though still Class-A output.) Since most of my phones are older 60-300 ohm jobs, this generally does the job. If I worked a lot with some 32 ohm phones, I might need lower output resistance.

FWIW, both my amps have non-zero output impedance because I am not convinced that phones need damping. (Good phones: I have some junk phones that buzz slightly less with low-Z drive, but they are still junk.) In recent thinking, 100 ohms was probably a bit too high, and 55 ohms a wee bit high, but I think 20-30 ohms is good for most phones.

Also: when driving multiple phones, individual 27 ohm resistors semi-equalize the power into various impedances, and isolate shorted wires so the other phones stay live.
 
Damping and Headphones ??

I wish I had an answer. Time spent with speakers tells me that is should but experience with headphones just doesn't support that. Multiple resistors for each unit is a must and will save some headphones.

If you do succum to the musician saying they want more, be wary of the guitarist as it is likely that the mix will be heavy with guitar or bass. Having a great deal of headroom is great BUT it does mean you have the grunt to do damage as PRR says. Drums are spiky wave forms and so the continuous content is not as great as compressed guitar or bass. Constant clipping will also be very dangerous for both HPs and Ears.

Keep an eye on the clock and take breaks often. At least you can try to look after their ears for them even if they don't. If you do blow headphones have a think about what it might be doing to eardrums.

side step
Has anyone every used a Gain Block like our Melcor to drive headphones ??
The JLM unit can handle a high rail voltage. Probably too expensive but I'd still like to try it.
A 1272 derivative sounds pretty good. Again all a bit expensive and wasteful for HPs ... gapped trafo and all that. :roll:
 
[quote author="Kev"]Please people put your sarcasm and BS detectors aside for the time being and accept that headphones or ear piece can mean radicaly different things to many people.[/quote]

Point taken :) -- sorry mate, was late last night when i was reading... Plz understand, under the right conditions of fatigue, that post could have been translated as sarcasm :)

PRR ---
I also agree with your post on the ol' 5v rail. I agree completely that in a low-Z headphone set, that a low voltage system is acceptable.

Hmmm -- just as a thought - would you guys think about a Class-D headphone amp? :?:
 
> would you guys think about a Class-D headphone amp?

Around wall-outlets, there is no point for hundred-milliWatt amplifiers. The dissipation of Class B is plenty low enough: you can get 400mW out of a pair of TO92 transistors loafing at 100mW heat apiece. The reduction in power demand from 600mW in B to (in theory) 400mW in D does not matter when the cheapest power transformers are 5VA or 10VA. And making Class D non-trashy is MUCH harder than making a clean Class B amplifier, and much less well studied.

In battery gear, if there are no motors (motors typically need more power than headphones), a switcher may make sense. Especially because it allows designing for high power while (in theory) using much less power than Class B when working at low outputs. Class D power demand goes down directly as load demand; Class B goes down as square-root of load demand. Class B rated for 100 Watts but only delivering 1W will eat 10 watts. Class D would only need the 1 Watt (plus its idle losses, othen considerable, especially at milliWatt levels).

And unlike loudspeaker amps, at headphone powers Class A is perfectly practical. My "ample" headphone amp runs A with $0.59 heatsinks and a $3 wall-wart power lump. AND with $0.59 power transistors that I know are barely fast enough for 20KHz, and would not be happy switching at hypersonic rates.

If battery life is an issue in flash-RAM pocket music players, then a Class D amp has a need. But I gather that many of the iPod type things use hard drives, which even small and slow must use enough power to make the savings from Class D outputs hardly worth the effort.

Class D is useful in SubWoofers, where power is high and bandwidth and quality are low. And all the usual suspects (TI, National, et al) know this. Everywhere I look someone has a chipset starter pack for a 100 Watt 200Hz no-heatsink power amp.

What would you think of taking one of the car-sound power amplifiers, building it on a 40 Volt process (some already are), biasing it up to 125mA idle current, so it could run 15V peaks in 100 ohms or 250mA peaks in 32 ohms, a Full-Watt Class-A headphone amp? That could replace a number of cobble-together headphone amps in mixers and other high-level studio gear. Since there may be only one headphone amp in a 32-in console, sales won't be large. But if it is a slight change on an existing part, sales could still justify the effort. And if some engineer is charged with making it so good that it beats all cobble-together HP amps, it could come out very sweet.

Oh, novel bias idea: as described (125mA and 40V) it would melt-down without a good heatsink. Of course the idle current should be proportional to supply voltage. But also, it should reduce to hold die temperature below 100 degrees. With small sink on high voltage, it won't really be Class A on 32 ohms, but who will tell?
 
[quote author="PRR"]Around wall-outlets, there is no point for hundred-milliWatt amplifiers. The dissipation of Class B is plenty low enough. And making Class D non-trashy is MUCH harder than making a clean Class B amplifier, and much less well studied.[/quote]Amen to that! I have listened to class T vs class D vs class AB. IMO, class D/T are all about efficiency. I don't like the way those topologies sound. I don't even like D for bass. At lower power levels (say less than 500-1000W) this makes little sense. If you want a topology to pick on about poor damping...D or T would be your target of offense because of the o/p filters needed...Damping? What damping?
it allows designing for high power while (in theory) using much less power than Class B when working at low outputs. Class D would only need the 1 Watt (plus its idle losses, othen considerable, especially at milliWatt levels).
I'm not sure exactly what you're getting at here PRR...My observation is that class D has a fairly constant efficiency for a given load impedance, class A/B will vary as you say. You can design either topology for higher power, but the D will be more efficient for a given impedance...to a point. At 2 ohm or 1 ohm loads, class D efficiency will fall off like A/B.
And unlike loudspeaker amps, at headphone powers Class A is perfectly practical.
Amen again!
What would you think of taking one of the car-sound power amplifiers, building it on a 40 Volt process (some already are)
Please clarify?
biasing it up to 125mA idle current, so it could run 15V peaks in 100 ohms or 250mA peaks in 32 ohms, a Full-Watt Class-A headphone amp?
Sounds like an easy and fun project.
Oh, novel bias idea: as described (125mA and 40V) it would melt-down without a good heatsink. Of course the idle current should be proportional to supply voltage. But also, it should reduce to hold die temperature below 100 degrees. With small sink on high voltage, it won't really be Class A on 32 ohms, but who will tell?
I think I know of a different method of setting bias...by using an O'scope rather than calculations...so that idle current is minimized. There is a better way, methinks. But then again, aluminum is pretty cheep!

Peace!
Charlie
 
[quote author="SonsOfThunder"] I have listened to class T vs class D vs class AB. IMO, class D/T are all about efficiency. I don't like the way those topologies sound. [/quote]

for those that have forgotten :? give us a reminder of what D and T topologies are.
:roll:
I have actually forgotten what the T is ...
 

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