Ethan

Re: Black Market <--> Free Market
« Reply #20 on: January 29, 2012, 01:18:51 PM »
You can finalize the sale however you wish (however the seller chooses). When creating a listing, if you enter a PayPal address for your buyer to use for paying, they will get a link asking them to pay to your paypal account.
If you leave the paypal field empty, the winner is told to contact you for further payment instructions.

@Doug: The listing duration change has been implemented. Users can now choose how many days, up to a max of 365.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2012, 01:42:54 PM by Ethan »
I am just the Web Geek here.


EmRR

Re: Black Market <--> Free Market
« Reply #21 on: January 29, 2012, 02:26:32 PM »
Thanks for the clarity, and the change, Ethan.   I know this can't be easy to implement, and it's really a convenience for the members here. 

It appears correct that the Paypal initiation is simply due to the fact that the listing funds have to get to Ethan somehow.  It shows up as if you'd hit the 'donate' icon at the bottom of every page.  Seems a good way to keep this place up and running. 
Best,

Doug Williams
Electromagnetic Radiation Recorders

"I think this can be better. Some kind of control that's intuitive, not complicated like a single knob" - Crusty

"Back when everything sounde

Ethan

Re: Black Market <--> Free Market
« Reply #22 on: January 29, 2012, 02:31:55 PM »
Thanks Doug.

The reasoning for splitting the Black Market from the now Free Market was so that it's more clear cut and users cannot rely on a busy forum to "hide" a commercial sales venture. The new BM also ties into a feedback system to build more confidence between good member transactions and to deter theft.

The new BM is now separately categorized for "Want to Buy" and "Want to Sell".  This should also help members quickly find exactly what their looking for.

The Free Market is now the place for one-time group buys or giveaways. Since the Free Market only serves 2 purposes, it will be easier to deter abusive listings.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2012, 02:38:29 PM by Ethan »
I am just the Web Geek here.

gemini86

Re: Black Market <--> Free Market
« Reply #23 on: January 29, 2012, 02:48:47 PM »
I haven't actually clicked submit to see for sure, but it seems that feedback tampering could be an issue. (you could just boost your feedback from a couple friends or fake accounts to get what looks like positive feedback, without a transaction taking place.)
- Rodney

"...you better call Kenny Loggins, 'cause you're in the danger zone."

EmRR

Re: Black Market <--> Free Market
« Reply #24 on: January 29, 2012, 02:52:45 PM »
I know you're on it; if it were me (in my vacuum) I'd probably first attend to:

1) amend the BM 'guidelines' sticky in the FM
2) decide where the 'ebay' and 'stolen' stickies should go
3) detailed FAQ/guidelines on the new BM structure

Interesting choice to put the BM at the top bar rather than in the forums.  No other thought than that so far.  I'm sure folks can debate that one too. 

Thanks
Best,

Doug Williams
Electromagnetic Radiation Recorders

"I think this can be better. Some kind of control that's intuitive, not complicated like a single knob" - Crusty

"Back when everything sounde

Ethan

Re: Black Market <--> Free Market
« Reply #25 on: January 29, 2012, 02:53:54 PM »
I haven't actually clicked submit to see for sure, but it seems that feedback tampering could be an issue. (you could just boost your feedback from a couple friends or fake accounts to get what looks like positive feedback, without a transaction taking place.)
If you were not involved in the transaction, you should get an error if you tried to submit.
I am just the Web Geek here.

gemini86

Re: Black Market <--> Free Market
« Reply #26 on: January 29, 2012, 02:55:03 PM »
oh god, am I just full of questions lately...

Does the BM link have any kind of [new] indicator? I like seeing little orange bits of joy.

Ethan, good to know.
- Rodney

"...you better call Kenny Loggins, 'cause you're in the danger zone."

Ethan

Re: Black Market <--> Free Market
« Reply #27 on: January 29, 2012, 02:58:43 PM »
You're too fast for me guys. ;)

It's a work in progress. Integrating this was challenging, so I'm now prioritizing finding/fixing bugs that affect basic functionality.
Then, I'll do my best to build out useful features.
Thanks.
I am just the Web Geek here.

Biasrocks

Re: Black Market <--> Free Market
« Reply #28 on: January 29, 2012, 04:17:02 PM »
I must be blind, all I'm seeing in the Marketplace section is the WM and the new FREE MARKET which mentions the BM (see above).

I can't see the BM section for some reason.

Regards,
Mark
http://SharktankPro.com

"I'd rather use an SPX90 than a UA plugin....." Joe Barresi

EmRR

Re: Black Market <--> Free Market
« Reply #29 on: January 29, 2012, 04:23:30 PM »
top bar next to 'my messages'
Best,

Doug Williams
Electromagnetic Radiation Recorders

"I think this can be better. Some kind of control that's intuitive, not complicated like a single knob" - Crusty

"Back when everything sounde


Biasrocks

Re: Black Market <--> Free Market
« Reply #30 on: January 29, 2012, 05:10:30 PM »
Ah hah!

Found it.

Thanks Doug.

Mark
http://SharktankPro.com

"I'd rather use an SPX90 than a UA plugin....." Joe Barresi

wtmnmf

Re: Black Market <--> Free Market
« Reply #31 on: January 29, 2012, 06:31:38 PM »
Can one set terms for who can bid?(minimum post count)

I'd like to second the call for that feature and suggest that adding a filter for length of membership would be good, otherwise someone may just flood the forum with nonsense posts so that they clear the minimum post threshold.  I wouldn't be selling here primarily to avoid eBay/Paypal fees, but rather to offer what I have to forum members first.  I like the idea of doing the transaction in a community that has, well, a community feeling, and I would hope that filtering the buyers would allow transaction to be completed in a relaxed manner; reasonably certain that all will go well - despite working without a safety net.

I looked through the member list the other day and noticed that just over 50% of members had not even a single post. Include single digits, and it's more than 2/3. Triple digit posters are in the 93rd percentile, and quadruple digit posters are just .6% of the population.  The double digits are, as might be expected, distributed with heavy weighting towards the bottom.

This indicates that a threshold of, say, 80 posts, is sufficient to narrow things down to the hardcore membership. 
I don't think that I noticed any members making the 80 post threshold in less than 6 mo. , with most taking substantially longer.  Since you'd just be trying to block scammers, 60 mo. should suffice.

gemini86

Re: Black Market <--> Free Market
« Reply #32 on: January 29, 2012, 06:54:59 PM »
I don't really know now, I mean it would really suck to try to jump into DIY on the greatest DIY site around and be blocked from buying in the black market, so maybe only place restrictions on selling? Or do we leave it open and just let our human brain power do what it does best and just think it through?

I tend to shy away from over-regulation when there has been no evidence that it's needed. (and I'm a democrat... ;) )
- Rodney

"...you better call Kenny Loggins, 'cause you're in the danger zone."

PRR

Re: Black Market <--> Free Market
« Reply #33 on: January 30, 2012, 01:53:09 AM »
> over 50% of members had not even a single post.

I've participated in forums since well before Al Gore invented the internet. 90++% lurkers used to be the usual figure (when you needed to register to read). 90% of posts came from a dozen members. Here the dizzy-dozen hardly exceed 15% of total posts.

> I don't think that I noticed any members making the 80 post threshold in less than 6 mo.

Five weeks:
 6059 on: June 04, 2004
 5979 on: July 09, 2004

Three months:
 2738 on: June 05, 2004
 2658 on: August 11, 2004

Three weeks:
 5105 on: December 02, 2006
 5025 on: December 21, 2006

We can also find members with 80 pretty-useless posts in X months. OTOH of the examples above, one was all strong answers and another was very provocative questions (a forum needs _both_).

I do not see why post-count, or time served, or posts per day, counts for anything?

I have seen people, on their first post, show more understanding of forum events than many oldtimers.

gemini86

Re: Black Market <--> Free Market
« Reply #34 on: January 30, 2012, 02:42:23 AM »
Good points PRR....

I remember rkn80's first post was a bold ridiculous idea that resulted in an actual working DIY ADA converter project. Some noobs aren't noobs at all...

- Rodney

"...you better call Kenny Loggins, 'cause you're in the danger zone."

wtmnmf

Re: Black Market <--> Free Market
« Reply #35 on: January 30, 2012, 05:56:21 PM »
PRR - I think you miss my point entirely. I'm not suggesting that a mechanism be developed for judging the value of members!

This is about sellers in the BM having a tool to use that can allow them to sell comfortably, without having to jump through the usual hoops that one does in order to avoid getting ripped off.  It would be up to the individual to determine whether or not they think it is useful to engage filters.  Remember, as it stands, Ethan has set up the BM as an auction with a commitment to sell.  That's quite different from a classified-style listing where you can feel free to accept or reject an offer to buy. 

What is one to do when the buyer joined today and has zero posts?  If I'm selling a lock washer that I've put in an envelope, then I'm out less than a buck, and I'll take the risk.  On the other hand, if I'm selling something for $5k and putting up $150 for shipping on top, I'm gonna want some assurance that things are going to work out OK.  That's where things get tricky.

As I said previously, I would choose to sell on the BM instead of eBay primarily for two reasons:
1) I'd like to offer my surplus gear preferentially to forum members
2) I'd like to do a simple, hassle-free transaction

If I'm selling to you (PRR), or any of the core members, then I won't give it a second thought when I box up my $5k whatever and front the postage.  You say the checks in the mail?  Fine.  I'm not willing to go that far for anyone who can use a search engine to locate my listing and join the forum.

It's all a matter of what one feels defines a community.  For me, participation and longevity are big factors, especially where trust is involved.  I absolutely agree that a new member can hit one out of the park on their first post and make themselves a valuable community member right away.  On the other hand, smart and valuable contributions do not equate to, or establish, trustworthiness.

I think it's important to remember that the new BM is for single items, and comes with a binding commitment to sell, while the new FM is the place for group buys (sellers/organizers take some risk here, but it is minimal, because it is unlikely that large numbers of members will fail to honor their commitment), and then the WM is place for business transactions, which are usually credit card based and have the usual mechanisms for recourse when a transaction goes bad.


Why should I care to comment at length here?
I think that it is justified because the BM is a pay-to-play device and I have some notion about what I want out of that deal.

Do we need all of these markets?
No!  It is a convenience, but these functions can be handled off-forum.  On other forums (fora?) people have personal and commercial items for sale with links in their signature line.  No discussion of sales in the threads.  Not my favorite style, but it's an option.

Will some new and trustworthy members be excluded?
Sure!  But, who cares?  They have no pressing need to buy, and I have no pressing need to sell.  Should either party have such a need, they should probably be in the WM.


EmRR

Re: Black Market <--> Free Market
« Reply #36 on: January 30, 2012, 06:31:56 PM »
Quote
Ethan has set up the BM as an auction with a commitment to sell.  That's quite different from a classified-style listing where you can feel free to accept or reject an offer to buy.

Hmm, good point.   There are definitely some members here I'd prefer to never sell anything to.   I'm not aware of legal wording requiring a sale, as on ebay, but people will surely treat it that way since it's a standard.  But what balances this?  Make them send you $100 bills stapled to a piece a cardboard via registered mail, if you don't trust them.  Payment terms can be tailored based on trust level, unlike ebay.   Western Union, Bank transfers, and PMO's all work great in these cases.   I have yet to see or hear of a bad PMO from Japan.

Best,

Doug Williams
Electromagnetic Radiation Recorders

"I think this can be better. Some kind of control that's intuitive, not complicated like a single knob" - Crusty

"Back when everything sounde

Ethan

Re: Black Market <--> Free Market
« Reply #37 on: January 30, 2012, 06:58:20 PM »
Sellers can reject bids if they feel it's necessary--although I may have to further develop this part of the system to make it more intuitive.

I will update the FAQ in the BM tomorrow to elaborate on some of these features. For the rest of the evening it's family time. 8)
I am just the Web Geek here.

ruairioflaherty

Re: Black Market <--> Free Market
« Reply #38 on: January 30, 2012, 07:21:24 PM »
Sellers can reject bids if they feel it's necessary--although I may have to further develop this part of the system to make it more intuitive.

I've given away lots of stuff here and sold lots of stuff at below market prices to help people out but that said there are definitely people on here that I won't sell anything to.  I hope all the changes work out for the better.

hodad

Re: Black Market <--> Free Market
« Reply #39 on: January 30, 2012, 08:05:15 PM »
that said there are definitely people on here that I won't sell anything to.

There is (or certainly was--I guess it's still there) a way on ebay to exclude certain problem bidders.  (I think I used it once when a guy gave me negative feedback for forgetting to put an IEC cord in with an item.)  And of course they allow exclusions by geographic region.  Perhaps leaving some escape clauses in the terms might be the easiest approach for now--much less code-intensive.


 

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