bad concept.
« on: May 15, 2018, 04:20:25 PM »

One intractable problem in the middle east is two, three, or more religions laying claim to the same dirt. Mecca, Jerusalem, and other religiously significant cities are not shared well.

JR

Seems to me the Palestinians want to share. The Israeli's don't.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2018, 01:32:21 PM by JohnRoberts »


Re: bad concept.
« Reply #1 on: May 15, 2018, 06:47:45 PM »
Seems to me the Palestinians want to share. The Israeli's don't.

Let the truth be known.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2018, 01:32:44 PM by JohnRoberts »

Re: bad concept.
« Reply #2 on: May 16, 2018, 11:52:18 AM »
Oh nice, big endorsement of india's caste system from gyraf. Daddy's little ghoul...

Exactly. Too many turning a blind eye to 'this' bad science fiction concept.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2018, 01:33:06 PM by JohnRoberts »

tands

Re: bad science fiction concept.
« Reply #3 on: May 16, 2018, 12:23:17 PM »
Daddy's little ghoul was in reference to ivanka trump.

Re: bad concept.
« Reply #4 on: May 16, 2018, 12:31:51 PM »
I know. I didn't want to take up space with the picture.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2018, 01:33:22 PM by JohnRoberts »

Re: bad concept.
« Reply #5 on: May 16, 2018, 07:19:45 PM »
The Israeli treatment of Palestinians is indeed a, bad concept. Bad, bad bad.

Thanks to JR for starting this thread on my behalf. Maybe a little more awareness will come to light showing how greedy, disinterested and unforgiving they have shown themselves to be.

And everyone knows it.


Re: bad concept.
« Reply #6 on: May 16, 2018, 10:04:36 PM »
I really don't need objective proof to see that the Palestinians have basically been shamboozeled off of their land and out of their homes,  but even then, are willing to move past it to go home to live in peace with the current occupiers.  I also don't need any proof to see that the Israeli's do not 'share' the same sentiment. It's a one sided argument.

There was a link I had posted a while back about a settlement, showing how easy it could be for them to live and share the land. But these were ordinary people, not zionists or whoever is there now, whatever you want to call them. I call them greedy and mean, because that is essentially what they're doing. 58 dead with slings and burnt tires.

Re: bad concept.
« Reply #7 on: May 16, 2018, 10:57:07 PM »
Basically the Israeli's stole everything and more and the Palestinians want it back. Not complicated.

It's a bad concept to steal. To knowingly steal.

Re: bad concept.
« Reply #8 on: May 16, 2018, 11:32:14 PM »
I've been watching youtube video's of Jews kicking the sh*t out of defenseless Palestinians for ten years. Encroaching on land they shouldn't, expanding settlements where they have no right to, etc.

"God gave us this land"...Yeah. Ok.  ::)

My great grandmother was jewish by the way.

fazer

Re: bad concept.
« Reply #9 on: May 17, 2018, 08:57:45 AM »
Quote
It's a bad concept to steal. To knowingly steal.

Sounds just like Wallstreet.


JohnRoberts

Re: bad concept.
« Reply #10 on: May 17, 2018, 10:19:16 AM »
I've been watching youtube video's of Jews kicking the sh*t out of defenseless Palestinians for ten years. Encroaching on land they shouldn't, expanding settlements where they have no right to, etc.

"God gave us this land"...Yeah. Ok.  ::)

My great grandmother was jewish by the way.
For years I have watched this stalemate play out. The two sides are not even close to what they both consider an acceptable outcome (Israel will not surrender their existence without a fight). Even before youtube and modern social media I've seen compelling images showing "innocents" being killed. There has been a long running "bad" publicity campaign. This does not mean these images are faked, just typically out of context. Sometimes they are intentionally staged to create publicity to get world attention, and influences world opinion, like the current border protests.

International media is now conflating the border protests with the embassy opening as if they needed an excuse to protest. The "innocent" Palestinians being injured while trying to break through the border fence are pawns organized and being used by their leaders as fodder precisely to create negative publicity for Israel. A baby died in the recent protest (from tear gas I think), but why would any mother in her right mind carry a baby into such a hazardous situation? 

Egypt is pressuring Hamas to stop the senseless deaths from this recent confrontation, while the knee jerk response from the west is to condemn Israel. As long as Hamas is winning the PR war, and keeps getting funding from the west, they will continue with this long game.

I do not pretend that anything about this conflict is simple and have written a lot about this right here for years. I invite all to do their own homework but be aware there are strong opinions and a lot of distorted rhetoric coming from both sides to influence the uninformed.

Please don't take my word for anything, but keep in mind media does not always present a very well balanced picture. 

JR
John Roberts
http://circularscience.com
Tune it, or don't play it...

tands

Re: bad concept.
« Reply #11 on: May 17, 2018, 11:04:48 AM »
Quote
IDF Soldier Recounts Harrowing, Heroic War Story Of Killing 8-Month-Old Child


JERUSALEM—Describing the terrifying yet valiant experience to his fellow battalion members, Israel Defense Forces soldier Yossi Saadon recounted Tuesday his harrowing, heroic war story of killing an 8-month-old Palestinian child during a violent attack against protesters. “It was a heart-pounding experience—there was smoke and gunfire all around me, and I made a split-second decision to hurl that canister of tear gas at the encroaching infant cradled in her father’s arms,” said Saadon to the group of awed soldiers, describing the chills that went up and down his spine as he realized that all he had was his M16 assault rifle and some tear gas to defend himself against the unarmed Palestinian family standing only dozens of yards away. “I could see the whites of the baby’s eyes and hear her terrifying cries, and I knew it was either her or me. And this wasn’t some newborn infant, you know? This was a baby who could probably sit up independently. I was scared, but I acted quickly to throw that tear gas at her and her older sister. And who knows how many lives I saved when I shot the women trying to help her?” At press time, Saadon’s battalion commander informed him that he was submitting his name for the Medal of Valor, the IDF’s highest honor.

https://www.theonion.com/idf-soldier-recounts-harrowing-heroic-war-story-of-kil-1826048745

tands

Re: bad concept.
« Reply #12 on: May 17, 2018, 11:09:08 AM »
Quote
Resistance to apartheid within South Africa took many forms over the years, from non-violent demonstrations, protests and strikes to political action and eventually to armed resistance. Together with the South Indian National Congress, the ANC organized a mass meeting in 1952, during which attendees burned their pass books. A group calling itself the Congress of the People adopted a Freedom Charter in 1955 asserting that “South Africa belongs to all who live in it, black or white.” The government broke up the meeting and arrested 150 people, charging them with high treason.

In 1960, at the black township of Sharpesville, the police opened fire on a group of unarmed blacks associated with the Pan-African Congress (PAC), an offshoot of the ANC. The group had arrived at the police station without passes, inviting arrest as an act of resistance. At least 67 blacks were killed and more than 180 wounded. Sharpesville convinced many anti-apartheid leaders that they could not achieve their objectives by peaceful means, and both the PAC and ANC established military wings, neither of which ever posed a serious military threat to the state. By 1961, most resistance leaders had been captured and sentenced to long prison terms or executed. Nelson Mandela, a founder of Umkhonto we Sizwe (“Spear of the Nation”), the military wing of the ANC, was incarcerated from 1963 to 1990; his imprisonment would draw international attention and help garner support for the anti-apartheid cause.

Apartheid Comes to an End

In 1976, when thousands of black children in Soweto, a black township outside Johannesburg, demonstrated against the Afrikaans language requirement for black African students, the police opened fire with tear gas and bullets. The protests and government crackdowns that followed, combined with a national economic recession, drew more international attention to South Africa and shattered all illusions that apartheid had brought peace or prosperity to the nation. The United Nations General Assembly had denounced apartheid in 1973, and in 1976 the UN Security Council voted to impose a mandatory embargo on the sale of arms to South Africa. In 1985, the United Kingdom and United States imposed economic sanctions on the country.

Under pressure from the international community, the National Party government of Pieter Botha sought to institute some reforms, including abolition of the pass laws and the ban on interracial sex and marriage. The reforms fell short of any substantive change, however, and by 1989 Botha was pressured to step aside in favor of F.W. de Klerk. De Klerk’s government subsequently repealed the Population Registration Act, as well as most of the other legislation that formed the legal basis for apartheid. A new constitution, which enfranchised blacks and other racial groups, took effect in 1994, and elections that year led to a coalition government with a nonwhite majority, marking the official end of the apartheid system.

https://www.history.com/topics/apartheid

Re: bad concept.
« Reply #13 on: May 17, 2018, 01:29:34 PM »
Quote from: desol on Today at 12:57:20 PM

    In a way, it is a part of this original thread, even tho it's not the main focus. I can't start a separate thread, in reply to an element in another...

    I have tried to keep subsequent replies on the exact topic. But now I'm getting off topic about the topic..

"You don't have to, I already did and moved your posts over there.

I edited down the name of the split thread to "bad concept" because that was easy.

JR"

Ok. I've moved your reply over to the topic at hand, because I thought that was the appropriate thing to do.

Stealing land and beating people up in the name of god, is indeed a 'bad' concept. I wish it were more complicated than that.

tands

Re: bad concept.
« Reply #14 on: May 17, 2018, 10:49:34 PM »
Quote
Love too expand my borders and then massacre the people already there for "infiltrating" me.

https://twitter.com/JediofGallifrey/status/996519013701373952

tands

Re: bad concept.
« Reply #15 on: May 19, 2018, 01:30:41 AM »
Quote
The United Nations Human Rights Council (HRC) just issued a stunning rebuke to Israel, voting through a resolution calling on the council to "urgently dispatch an independent, international commission of inquiry... to investigate all alleged violations and abuses... in the context of the military assaults on large scale civilian protests that began on 30 March 2018," while the UN human rights chief slammed Israel's "wholly disproportionate response."

The UN's top human rights body passed the resolution with 29 votes in favor, two opposed and 14 abstentions.

The two HRC members in opposition were the United States and Australia (the UK abstained), with Israel condemning the vote, which was proposed by a group of countries including Pakistan. Both the US and Israel criticized the resolution's language for failing to mention Hamas — the militant group ruling over Gaza — which Israel blames for the scores of civilians killed during the 'Great March of Return' protests.

On Monday 60 Palestinians were gunned down by Israeli live fire as protesters approached the border fence area. The following day U.N. leadership issued a scathing critique of Israel's actions, with the U.N.'s human rights commissioner identifying women, children, journalists, first responders and bystanders as among the dead. "We condemn the appalling, deadly violence in Gaza yesterday," said Rupert Colville, spokesperson for the U.N. High Commissioner for Human Rights.

Though the U.N. commissioner acknowledged the Palestinians' attempt to break down and damage the fence that separates Gaza and Israel, he added that this did "not amount to a threat to life or serious injury and are not sufficient grounds for the use of live ammunition."

And a day before Friday's HRC resolution vote Defense Minister Avigdor Liberman urged Israel to withdraw its membership in the United Nations Human Rights Council altogether, arguing that "Israel is under a double attack," and further that, "A terror attack from Gaza and an attack of hypocrisy headed by the United Nations Human Rights Council."

    By a strong majority vote of 29-2, #UNHRC votes to create #COI into #Gaza bloodshed. US & Australia, oppose, #EU divided. Shame on those who spoke of the need for an investigation ... but then failed to support it. pic.twitter.com/rVCqocLay3
    — John Fisher (@JohnFisher_hrw) May 18, 2018

Throughout the mass Palestinian protest along the Gaza-Israel border, which began on March 30th, Israel has maintained its stance that Hamas is purposefully provoking the shootings, even to the point of sending children and disabled to the fence near Israeli security positions, and hiding firearms among the crowd. However, the U.N. and a number of nations that have condemned the killings — some like South Africa even recalling their ambassador — aren't buying this as a valid explanation for the appalling death toll.

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-05-18/stunning-rebuke-un-votes-investigate-israel-gaza-mass-shootings

tands

Re: bad concept.
« Reply #16 on: May 19, 2018, 01:38:25 AM »
Quote
In a scathing speech on Friday just before the United Nations Human Rights Council voted overwhelmingly to dispatch war crimes investigators to probe Israel's massacre of dozens of unarmed Palestinians earlier this week, U.N. human rights chief Zeid Ra'ad Al Hussein condemned Israel's "horrific" attacks on peaceful demonstrators and declared "the occupation must end."

"What do you become when you shoot to kill someone who is unarmed, and not an immediate threat to you? You are neither brave, nor a hero."
—Zeid Ra'ad Al Hussein, U.N. human rights chief

Palestinians "are, in essence, caged in a toxic slum from birth to death; deprived of dignity; dehumanized by the Israeli authorities to such a point it appears officials do not even consider that these men and women have a right, as well as every reason, to protest," Zeid said. "I therefore endorse calls made by many states and observers for an investigation that is international, independent, and impartial—in the hope the truth regarding these matters will lead to justice."

Taking aim at the rhetoric of Israeli officials in the aftermath of the massacre, Zeid went on to say, "This was not 'a PR victory for Hamas,' in the reported words of a senior Israeli military spokesman; it was a tragedy for thousands of families."

"The Israeli Prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, has also described the demonstrators as being 'paid by Hamas,' and has said the Israeli security forces 'try to minimize casualties," Zeid added. "But there is little evidence of any attempt to minimize casualties on Monday."

He continued:

    Palestinians have exactly the same human rights as Israelis do. They have the same rights to live safely in their homes, in freedom, with adequate and essential services and opportunities. And of this essential core of entitlements due to every human being, they are systematically deprived.

    All of the 1.9 million people who live in Gaza have been penned in behind fences and have suffered progressively more restrictions and greater poverty. After 11 years of blockade by Israel they have little hope of employment, and their infrastructure is crumbling, with an electricity crisis, inadequate health services and a decaying sewage system that constitutes a threat to health.

Zeid's remarks came during a special session of the Human Rights Council that was called after Israeli forces killed more than 60 Palestinians and wounded over two thousand more on Monday.

On the heels of Zeid's speech, the council voted to launch an independent investigation of the massacre. Only the U.S. and Australia voted against the probe, and 14 nations—including Germany, the United Kingdom, and Switzerland—abstained.

"Those responsible for violations must in the end be held accountable. In this context, as in all conflicts where impunity is widespread, unless ended by a peace settlement, excessive violence—both horrifying and criminal—flows easily from the barrel of a gun; becomes normal, destroying the occupied perhaps, but something crucial too in the occupier," Zeid concluded. "What do you become when you shoot to kill someone who is unarmed, and not an immediate threat to you? You are neither brave, nor a hero. You have become someone very different to that."

https://www.commondreams.org/news/2018/05/18/un-approves-war-crimes-probe-human-rights-chief-rips-israels-horrifying-massacre

gyraf

Re: bad concept.
« Reply #17 on: May 19, 2018, 03:30:25 AM »
Still just loads of copypasta, and none of your own ideas or intrepetations?

I really think you are wasting our time here, Tands - and you are definitely cluttering up threads that would otherwise make sense.

Jakob E.
..note to self: don't let Harman run your company..

Re: bad concept.
« Reply #18 on: May 19, 2018, 10:02:26 AM »
Those kids in that video are laughing, but at least they are willing to talk. This alone is in stark contrast to much of what I have seen from the other side. This was one of the first video's I watched a long time ago and it has always stuck with me. I stopped wondering about objectivity after too long, and too much evidence...too many weak excuses. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3iHtoAg6cc

Re: bad concept.
« Reply #19 on: May 19, 2018, 12:06:45 PM »
Those kids need the parental smack down....For drinking at such a young age and for saying the things they were saying. Total bullies.... I wish I could say I've never been exposed to this type of whatever it is.

When I was younger, me and my buddies decided to get some beer in a part of town I guess we weren't supposed to be in. Unfortunately my buddy decided to ask why and left with a broken nose.

I'm pretty sure it's still that way. Haven't been back so can't say for certain.

They're like that, because of their parents.


 

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