Windows 10 update GRRRRRRRRR

squarewave said:

Linux is not a suitable desktop machine for just about anything. As a developer I have used Linux exclusively as my primary machine since ~1998 (kernel 2.0.35 I think). But aside from the obvious browsing and checking email and maybe doing a document or simple spreadsheet with Libreoffice, it is totally useless as a desktop. I only use it because I spend 80% of my time in terminals editing code vim and running shell commands. And even that has become more difficult as the desktops have actually deteriorated over the years as Linux desktop developers gut and slash features to make the desktop experience a dumbed down version of OSX. The Linux desktop was never any good and it never will be for countless reasons other than the obvious fact that it does not run Eagle, LTSpice, Sketchup, Front Panel Designer, Draftsight, common DAWs or any of the usual non-EE applications and the reason for that is because Windows desktop market share is >80% so companies that write desktop software (as opposed to some little "app" or web based solution) are going to write it for the Windows platform. End of story. No further consideration necessary. It is a simple pragmatic economic calculation. I know there are a lot of folks that disagree with this assessment but if they have never worked in a corporate / enterprise environment and never see how the desktop is really used in a serious work environment where folks are doing engineering, financial analysis, shipping, medical services, banking, document processing, and so on and so on they just don't know what they're talking about. Linux is for headless servers. And for that it is very good because the economic equation works.

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This sounds more or less like a bitter rant. Windows is the sole target of all kinds of junk, spyware, viruses. You can have it dude, and keep it! Who knows what licensing and/or privacy agreements microsoft is forced into as well, with all the downloading of music, movies and software on the net. Huge amount of companies with rights on microsoft users!

+ the entire planet of hackers makes it a point to break into windows machines for fun...it's the last OS I want to be using for browsing on the web. Have next to zero issues with KDE on Mint. Any little issues that there are, are worth the security and privacy that Linux offers.

Also, we aren't speaking from an enterprise viewpoint, or at least I'm not, and I don't use a DAW either. The guys here are home users. If I need it I have windows dual booted, otherwise I'm more than happy with Linux for internet use, absolute. Me no trusty microsoft's reputation.

This was a common sense perspective for 'years' when I was a tech(and amongst my Linux friends!), and imo still is.

Choice of Daws is a bit limited in linux alright , Id like to try Reaper via wine in Linux , I use it a bit in windows and found my feet the moment I installed it  ,within two minutes I had my sound inputs configured and  tape channels in input monitor mode ,ready to hit play and record .How does he fit such a cracking  program down into 10-15mb ,where protools is gargantuan ,monsterous.
A totally standalone hard disk recorder based on linux , computer hardware and audio interface would be really cool  , just a  stripped down version of linux ,transport controls, metering ,track arm buttons and keyboard to punch in data , I guess there are proprietary systems that do exactly this ,but I havent seen any open source stuff doing it which is a pity. Of  course I could be completely wrong ,and just not have found the right Github repository .Id be really interested if anyone knows more

As we'd say here in Ireland ,Windows is after getting a bit too 'fond' of itself .
It can be off shuffling its tripes  when you want it to do something at times ,HD activity led is always always blinking furiously .Its very likely that with modern hardware including ssd's , a pared down linux system could run completely silently ,except for brute force horse power applications like plugins . The way windows gradually grinds to a halt ,coupled with ever more processor dissipation and fan noise always really bugged me ,  a well tuned system does the job  ,but there always that moment when some variety of snagware gets its hooks in and your Os starts to look  unstable. 

ruffrecords said:

Linux does run Eagle natively.  Front Panel designer is a native Linux application.

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True. My mistake. I forgot that Eagle ran on Linux. Didn't know about FPD.

But claiming stuff runs "perfectly" under wine and that LibreOffice is better than MS Office is just tribal crazy talk.

Applications aside, denial that the Linux desktop is not good will only exacerbate the problem because you're giving developers a false sense of positive feedback. Linux used to be the "power user" platform. But they simplified it to be more like MacOS (and Windows 8 which also tried to be like OSX and that didn't go well). It should not try to compete with other desktops. It should be on the forefront of desktop development. Instead they're not developing the things that were really great about the Linux desktop. For example, the X server can export it's display to another X server and it worked really well because X was specifically designed to do this with thin clients from the beginning. So it was fast (like you were running it locally). Remote Desktop by comparison is slow. But no one uses this feature anymore because there's no security.

Actually the real problem with the Linux desktop is that it has little to no integration with other layers. The layers are desktop -> window manager -> display server -> display driver. Each of these layers is a separate project with different people and different philosophies. This has created long standing issues. For example, forever there has been a dumb issue of which layer is responsible for remembering the position of windows so that when you re-launch an application it does something sane. The display server people (X.org) claim that it's actually the application's responsibility. That is completely absurd because there can be changes in display resolution (such as when switching between an external monitor and builtin display) or, for example, if you have a grid of desktops and you log out and back in you have to re-position all of the applications because they are of course no sophisticated enough to understand how the display has changed or what desktop it was on.

I appreciate the fact that Windows is overrun with viruses and malware. But that's really besides the point. And as I mentioned before, if you don't run as Admin a lot of that can be avoided (I don't recall the last time I had any malware or viruses - I don't think I ever have actually).

Bare in mind, I don't use the Windows desktop. I use Linux as my primary machine. But I do have 4 Windows machines (and ~6 Windows installations running in VMs on a Linux host for testing software) and I specialize in integrating non-Windows software into Windows environments (such as using Java to do security related communication with Active Directory) and so I know a lot about how things work under-the-hood. And I can say with great confidence that the Windows platform is actually much more sophisticated than the average user thinks.

squarewave said:

I appreciate the fact that Windows is overrun with viruses and malware. But that's really besides the point.

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Not for me. It's the main point. I primarily use an operating system for internet access, banking, email and other related stuff....and I also don't feel I need to have to agree to a million(hidden) terms and service agreements from pissed off companies that have microsoft by the balls. As previously mentioned, I have dual boot...Ext4 for internet....microslop for compatibility = best(and safest) of both worlds.

"You probably knew this from the beginning: The clear consensus among experts is that Linux is the most secure operating system. But while it’s the OS of choice for servers, enterprises deploying it on the desktop are few and far between. " - https://www.computerworld.com/article/3252823/linux/why-linux-is-better-than-windows-or-macos-for-security.html

squarewave said:

True. My mistake. I forgot that Eagle ran on Linux. Didn't know about FPD.

But claiming stuff runs "perfectly" under wine and that LibreOffice is better than MS Office is just tribal crazy talk.

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Not a claim, it's a fact. I run FreePCB under wine. All my PCB designs are done using freePCB this way. I have done well over 100 PCB layouts this way. Many people have bought and built these PCBs without problems. Similarly LTspice runs perfectly under wine. Not all programs run perfectly under wine - I never said that - but very many do.

For the vast majority of users, LbreOffice IS better then MS office....


but, YAWN, I know I am never going to convince you so I will not bother. Suffice to say me an very many other people are perfectly happy with Linux and its desktop. We are happy it does not try to control our lives, we are happy it does not crash all the time, we are happy it is inexpensive, we are happy it gives us the option to upgrade the OS rather than doing it behind our backs, we are happy it does not just get slower and slower as time goes on, we are happy that when a new version comes out upgrade is simple, painless and cost free, we are happy as many work spaces as you like are avaiable etec etec etc.

Cheers

Ian

desol said:

Not for me. It's the main point.

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Well I meant that it's besides the point that the Linux desktop is not as usable as Windows. But otherwise yes, clearly interacting with the Internet in any way is definitely much safer on Linux because most (basically all) of the hacks are targeting Windows just because it's a bigger target (market share and older larger codebase).

squarewave said:

Well I meant that it's besides the point that the Linux desktop is not as usable as Windows.

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Where do you get this idea from. For about 20 years Linux has had the capability to switch between workspaces but Windows has not. How does that make Windows better?

Cheers

ian

ruffrecords said:

Where do you get this idea from. For about 20 years Linux has had the capability to switch between workspaces but Windows has not. How does that make Windows better?

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That is a nice feature. I use a lot of workspaces. But it's funny that you mentioned it because that is something that actually used to work a lot better. In GNOME it used to be possible to have a grid of workspaces and you could map key combinations to mean up / down / right / left and such. But GNOME 3 got rid of that and now you can only move vertically which is a PITA. I tried a grid "plugin" but it was a total joke but I should try again as it has been a while. So this is just an example of dumbing down the interface.

Another good example of how the Linux desktop has deteriorated is how you can no longer move a modal dialog (a window that pops up on top of another application that must be dismissed before you can continue). This is monumentally stupid because frequently you need to move it out of the way so that you see something like the persons company name in an email so that you can create a folder to save whatever email attachments).

And they keep changing the appearance of things. Who cares if it's pretty? And was it really that bad that they needed to re-organize how network settings are listed? Their priorities are off.

The file browser has always been a little weak. For example, if you select something in a list of files / directories and then type a letter, IMO the focus should jump to a file / dir that begins with that letter. But apparently developers didn't see it that way. Instead, it searches for a file / dir that contains that letter (which of course matchs pretty much everything). It's like they change something based on one persons whim.

Then there's confusing unpredictable clipboard behavior. Do you Ctrl-C / Ctrl-V or do you highlight and then paste using both mouse buttons together? Sometimes it works one way and not the other. Especially if you're cutting / pasting from a terminal window or browser. A lot of people don't realize that the two clipboards are actually two completely independent buffers. That can be annoying.

But these are actually small things. If you're a "home" user maybe you don't care so much about integration but I have literally 8 machines on the same network not including VMs. So sharing files and such can be a pain. Am I going to setup a KDC and try to get all machines to do Kerberos? No. Kerberos is way to fickle for that. DNS has to be just right, time has to be synced, tickets become stale. I have no idea how to get NFS to actually do Kerberos. So most folks just scp things around. Can you even create a shortcut to a Windows share? I don't think so. Clearly the "Windows Network" option in the file browser is trying to do the old NetBIOS browse service thing which is totally deprecated AFAIK. So I have to use smbclient from the commandline.

Printing is sketchy. I have learned over the years to get a common printer from a well known manufacturer (HP laserjet) but I was never able to get scanning to work. Works in Windows.

Plugging in digital cameras and phones is always sketchy. Maybe it sees a filesystem if you're lucky. I don't recall every seeing a photo import app pop up.

Unicode is sketchy. Most people may not care about that but I have customers in many foreign countries and lot's of names and places are in CJK or Cryllic and such. Last I checked the Unicode font on Linux is just an amalgam of all the different fonts for different codepages bundled together. I don't even want to know what a PDF or printer data looks like with non-Latin characters in it.

The bottom line is that if I had an office with a few employees that needed to do real office style stuff like sharing files and scanning invoices and running applications designed for Windows, Linux just would not be an option. I can imagine a simple test like save this attachment to a shared drive and then go to another workstation and import it into a spreadsheet and then print it and so on. That would be a total fail on Linux. You would be trying to figure out how to save the file and then what are the permissions on it so that the other person could access it and then it doesn't import properly and printing chokes on some Unicode characters and so on. On Windows this would be much easier no doubt.

I like Linux a lot. I have have literally 6 active Linux machines. But I only use the desktop on 1 of those machines. The others are either headless or might as well be because they're only accessed remotely.

I'm glad you're using Linux and that it works well for you. But I just don't think fans are doing anyone favors by praising it so much. There are real problems with it and they're not going to get fixed if you claim that everything is just hunky dory.

Any compatibility problems I've had(mostly with xrandr/hdmi) have been minor compared to the benefits(peace of mind). There are far too many people breaking into machines, stealing information, etc...thank you very much. I've also had a small problem with internet audio playback, but again, that's minor and probably just needs a package update. I haven't gotten around to it yet...

Small compatibility things. The point is the file system and the freedom.

As an aside, my understanding is you lose quite a bit of privacy going from win7 to win10 by design.  It's all about callbacks to MSFT to 'improve' ad targeting in the new app-laden start window, and to refine 'user experience' and improve cortana's search algos. 

Even in 7 you need to need to remove about 25 updates to cut the umbilical and new updates come out all the time, some useful, some invasive.  Extra careful folks use a 3rd party firewall and modify their "hosts" file.  If an end user is of the paranoid type, then on top of a non-microsoft firewall a real time peer block app is added, which blocks MSFT as well as many other callback IP ranges with lookup tables that are appended daily.  And then there's VPN spoofing services, but if you've gone this far, you've prolly moved to a linux distro like Tails, with an onion router-- and god only knows what you're looking for/at on the darkweb. 

I don't know how much linux 'spies' on the endusers of its 'bells and whistles' type distros, but to be sure, the sheer quantity of people using windoze makes it a target, but being a well worn product,  has quite a few coders that know how to identify and refine the ways to defeat invasive programs / sections of kernel.

Also you can't beat the compatibility/ backwards compatibility of win. Of course iOS is fast becoming the new standard, but my advice tubetec is to stick with what you know and keep it at a version that has had about 5-7 years to marinate in attacks, privacy incursions and the subsequent workarounds and saas loopholes that get invariably created out of market demand before moving to the next best thing. But hey, if you feel like tech is leaving you behind can't help but try out a pertty new GUI, and can live with a near certainty that they are pulling your user metrics in any number of ways, then  by all means, go with the latest and greatist.

One last thought- best way imo to try out new stuff/os's is to run them as VM's; that way you can have as many worlds as you want but on one piece of hardware and if they suck or don't meet your needs, your most comfortable OS will not be lost to a forced upgrade.
-Boji

squarewave said:

I'm glad you're using Linux and that it works well for you. But I just don't think fans are doing anyone favors by praising it so much. There are real problems with it and they're not going to get fixed if you claim that everything is just hunky dory.

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Linux does work well for me. I have been using it for 20 years and it certainly was a PITA in the early days but the important thing is it does get better all the time. OK certain distros and apps do lose their way occasionally (Gnome) but they do eventually get back on track and there are plenty of desktops to choose from. I was really peeved when Ubuntu introduced Unity but they have dropped it now and in the interim I have been using Mate. There were lots of peripheral problems in the early days but they are mostly gone now. Some peripheral manufacturers provide better Linux support than others but again it is getting better all the time. I also tend to use HP printers but I also have a Samsung laser printer that works fine. I have had several HP printer/scanners over the years and they all worked out of the box with Xsane.

I agree it is not perfect but it is a lot less frustrating/secure/cheaper than windows. Whatever our personal views, Linux is definitely making major strides as an alternative desktop.

Cheers

Ian

Wow plenty of food for thought there , I suppose theres never going to be a one size fits all as far as OS's go ,each user will always have a more or less unique set of dependencies and requirements . Im typically not a power user in terms of my computer needs . What is always nice is a responsive pc ,and from my experience this doesnt have to mean the latest Os/Hardware, typically XP ticks most of the boxes for me ,and even with legacy hardware in terms of motherboard ,small ram ,but ssd instead of Hdd and it still does menial tasks snappier than Windows 10 , of course compatabillity issues with modern software are slowly killing it off good n proper , but in any case I do save windows product id tags/start codes from disgarded hardware when ever I can ,even if you want to run a VM version of old windows the product code is still needed ,and microsoft are still happy to charge you for a new licence for the priveledge if you happen to require it . Incidently to safely remove a windows product tag I place a layer of 3m weather proof vinyl tape over the top of the sticker ,then apply a little heat with either steam or hot air from a hair dryer, and it lifts nice n easy , then just stick it to a piece of card .

Thank you all for taking the time to put your thoughts forward on this gargantuan subject ,its definatly a case of more (opinions) is more , the rights and wrongs of it, very much like politics ,depends on your standpoint.

> my understanding is you lose quite a bit of privacy going from win7 to win10 by design.

Under a now-old NDA, I was briefed on then-new Windows 7 and all the background logging it does. _IF_ the FBI/KGB/etc can access your drive, most of what you have been doing can be dug out of hidden storage. Few details were given; it was mainly so PC technicians might have a clue when disk exploration exposed surprises, and so we would not f*ck things up on a drive which might be sent to Forensics.

I assume Win10 does the same only more. There was little mention of the internet for the Win7 logging, but clearly Win10 calls home constantly.

Having an OS that constantly updates itself without warning seems like a terrible idea in business where time is money.  What happens when the update doesn't work with certain software and then you need to spend hours / days / maybe more getting things up and running again.

I'm using Linux more these days for general things but it still lacks compatability for some must have applications. Main DAW is Pro Tools on Win 7 which never gets updated or goes online.  When something is stable and performs a needed function I leave it alone for as long as possible.

Just do both! 8)

https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/wsl/install-win10

I, myself, am really fed up with Windows, too.  I started using Linux last year, and NEVER had as many issues as with Windows in the same amount of time.  It's like a daily thing, some unknown thing comes up, that takes way too much time to fix.  And always the most obscure issues.

Running Linux virtually right now, but a few more of these episodes and that's it, I'm pulling the plug!!

I am in the process of trying out a version of 10 which is called 'LTSB'. It is not normally available (only for business clients or so), but you can get licenses on ebay for little money. It is 10 without all the crap I anyway do not want (cortana, mail, games, 3D and whatever) and it does not receive 'feature updates' - only security updates. Therefore it does not have the ridiculous long update downtimes every 6 months or so. The last version is from 2016, so the latest gimmicks won't be included.

Also there is a nifty little software from OOsoft called 'shut up 10'. It's free and offers switches for all security options in one place. I use it on all machines with 10 and it works like a charm.

For music production I am still on 8, I can't stand the idea that I might have to explain to a client that MS occupies the studio for the next two hours - I have no idea how a normal 10 installation can be used professionally?

Unfortunately music production on Linux seems like a nerd idea, the availability of music software seems rather limited. I believe it is good for a lot of mainstream things like email, browsing and writing texts though - unless you want MS Office...

Michael

LTSB sounds interesting.  Does it work for 2 in 1 laptops in tablet mode? That is the only use for 10 I have found.

Unfortunately music production on Linux seems like a nerd idea

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Don't make me fire up my amega and post a soon-to-be chart topping tracker...

Edit: LTSB should be instantiable with standard 10 since it is subtractive. One more thing that bugs me about MSFT.