Free speech at gearslutz

abbey road d enfer said:

That's about my definition of an incompetent proselytic technician.

Click to expand...

OK, different definition, but I see what you mean.

As in history being (ab)used to glorify past mistakes and not acknowledging they were the result of poor decision-making and industrial pressure.
The problem with many audio historians is they try to demonstrate they actually undestand the arcanes of the art, and fail miserably.
Think of vintage car specialists, does the fact they know all the variations of a model/brand actually make them good mechanics?
Of course, I wouldn't defend anything that's rabid, but as a designer, I would feel cheated if anyone picked up one of my designs and claim it's their work.

Click to expand...

Historians need oversight. Do you need to be a professional chef to write about the history of food?

Besides, I live in a town that's car crazy. Lots of very capable mechanics around. Not one of them is suited to be a car historian, cause none of them can write. And most only know a lot about one brand of car.

Believe me, Mr. B. deserves to be bashed. Actually, it's Dr. Ulrich and Mr. Behringer, one that set up one of the most interesting manufacturing environment, and one that blatantly ripped off protected designs. I believe Terry and Philip Clarke are bothered seeing their name on UREI and Pultec rip-offs.

Click to expand...

Tell me, why is mr. B to be bashed and none of the others? Is that because the others only sell a few hundred of their copies or because the copies are equally expensive?

That being said, I use the P16 foldback system in my studio, which, AFAIK is not a rip-off.

Click to expand...

Behringer is an entire city in China these days. There's not one, but two universities. And that education is accessible to most Chinese.

The products that roll out of the dozen or so Behringer factories in that city, no longer are copies. I can't think of any contemporary Behringer product that is a copy. Even stranger, Behringer is being copied these days. It doesn't seem to bother Ulli. They even allow Phonic, one of their OEM manufacturers, to copy the products they build for Behringer. Same device, limited quantities and even cheaper. Clearly, Ulli has learned from the Chinese.

One of the things he's learned, is you can't leave quality control in the hands of the Chinese. You need to keep a close eye on them.

Another thing he probably learned, is that the vast majority of the world's population has no respect for intellectual property. The Chinese consider copying as a form of flattery. You must be doing something right, if others are copying your work.

I don't blame Manley Labs; they are doing business. I just don't care about their products.

Click to expand...

The funny thing is, I was just looking into tube amps, for a friend mostly. But I'm also considering buying one myself. Mainly because DIY would take me years, as I have no experience with tubes. Stuff like what's going on on GS, strikes Manley from my list.

A lot of this is about cultural difference. And about the strange idea that seems to live in the heads of a lot of citizens of the USA that the rest of the world is like the USA.

A clear example of this happened on the RME forum a while back. Someone with a driver problem wanted help. Of course, he didn't mention the driver version he was using. When he responded with that info, the solution was to update to the latest drivers. Spontaneously, the RME person added: "Why didn't you try that in the first place?". Which lead the poster to ask about that person's communication skills...

Nobody in his right mind would take an insult in that remark. But he did. Unable to understand it was just a spontaneous remark, not an insult at all. Germans are direct. Americans aren't used to that. And the Chinese are laughing...

cyrano said:

Historians need oversight. Do you need to be a professional chef to write about the history of food?

Click to expand...

Of course not. The problem is an audio historian cannot make a living; that's why, unless he has a regular job,  he has to sell something, and in order to do so he must establish his technical credibility. Very few manage to do that. Such an example is a well-known microphone historian who spreads fallacies based on his very poor technical abilities.

Tell me, why is mr. B to be bashed

Click to expand...

Because I know him; he is motivated by frustration, because equipment manufacturers had the gall to ask him to pay for equipment when he tried to become a professional musician. He's a terrific piano player.

and none of the others?

Click to expand...

Just because I didn't mention the others doesn't mean they are not in my thoughts and prayers.  ;D

Another thing he probably learned, is that the vast majority of the world's population has no respect for intellectual property.

Click to expand...

Does it mean we are wrong and have to change our ways? Empathy is not an innate character; it took centuries of refining to become a natural for us privileged westerners.

  The Chinese consider copying as a form of flattery.

Click to expand...

The chinese consider they are entitled to do whatever benefits them, whatever the consequences; they are very good at justifying their bad manners when they're caught blood-handed.
Poison the food of your competitor's restaurant and invoke Lao-Tseu.

  A lot of this is about cultural difference. And about the strange idea that seems to live in the heads of a lot of citizens of the USA that the rest of the world is like the USA.

Click to expand...

  I would think we are guilty of the same sin in our dealings with other countries, like the old Eastern block, Africa, the middle East...

  Nobody in his right mind would take an insult in that remark. But he did. Unable to understand it was just a spontaneous remark, not an insult at all.

Click to expand...

The foundation of this problem is that everyone believes themselves legitimately entitled to say; "je ne suis pas plus con qu'un autre".

cyrano said:

Tell me, why is mr. B to be bashed and none of the others? Is that because the others only sell a few hundred of their copies or because the copies are equally expensive?

Click to expand...

His commercial success no doubt is a factor but mainly because so much of his early (actually middle) period growth was at the expense of other companies, when he took existing category killer (iconic top selling products) and retooled them to be manufactured cheaply in China.

Behringer is an entire city in China these days. There's not one, but two universities. And that education is accessible to most Chinese.

Click to expand...

? He started out using contract manufacturers in China but after enough sales success was able to parley that into building his own operation in a lower cost area of China. I was not aware of his investment in education but probably accessible to employees for obvious self-serving benefit.

The products that roll out of the dozen or so Behringer factories in that city, no longer are copies. I can't think of any contemporary Behringer product that is a copy. Even stranger, Behringer is being copied these days. It doesn't seem to bother Ulli. They even allow Phonic, one of their OEM manufacturers, to copy the products they build for Behringer. Same device, limited quantities and even cheaper. Clearly, Ulli has learned from the Chinese.

Click to expand...

Phonic started out as a Yamaha contract manufacturer, before selling versions under their own brand.
===
The cynic in me says, Behringer ran out of products to copy... : A natural progression for his business plan, as many of the small companies he copied from are no longer strong enough to design new category killers with their cash cows no longer competitive against cheaper priced Chinese made knock-offs. Another obvious factor is the existing brands he purchased with their own in house engineering teams.  Just logical they would continue doing what they were doing before.

One of the things he's learned, is you can't leave quality control in the hands of the Chinese. You need to keep a close eye on them.

Click to expand...

Not a Chinese thing, but true of any manufacturing operation wether across town, or on the other side of the world. Of course the time and language differences make hands off management all but impossible without boots on the ground. 

Another thing he probably learned, is that the vast majority of the world's population has no respect for intellectual property. The Chinese consider copying as a form of flattery. You must be doing something right, if others are copying your work.

Click to expand...

Cough? Not exactly flattery (if so I should feel flattered, because Uli copied my work more than once).  In fact the Chinese take on copying is that it is "clever" if they can get away with it without negative consequences. BTW Uli is not Chinese.

As China matures, and develops IP of their own to lose, they become a little more sensitive to IP theft. Coincidentally IP theft is a major topic in trade negotiations going on right now.  IP protection is a matter of law not culture or sentiment. China played fast and loose with IP law, when it benefitted them, that time is now running short.

The funny thing is, I was just looking into tube amps, for a friend mostly. But I'm also considering buying one myself. Mainly because DIY would take me years, as I have no experience with tubes. Stuff like what's going on on GS, strikes Manley from my list.

A lot of this is about cultural difference. And about the strange idea that seems to live in the heads of a lot of citizens of the USA that the rest of the world is like the USA.

Click to expand...

Most US citizens don't think about the rest of the world at all....

A clear example of this happened on the RME forum a while back. Someone with a driver problem wanted help. Of course, he didn't mention the driver version he was using. When he responded with that info, the solution was to update to the latest drivers. Spontaneously, the RME person added: "Why didn't you try that in the first place?". Which lead the poster to ask about that person's communication skills...

Nobody in his right mind would take an insult in that remark. But he did. Unable to understand it was just a spontaneous remark, not an insult at all. Germans are direct. Americans aren't used to that. And the Chinese are laughing...

Click to expand...

Not to mention the cultural shift where some younger people are overly sensitive to tone. I have even seen some complain about the free advice they receive on forums like this. Makes one wonder about their future, but I'm old so what would I know?

JR 

PS: when did this turn into a Behringer bash/apologia?  Behringer has been bashed on many internet forums (not just GS) and Uli himself participated in a charm offensive on several web forums several years ago to rehabilitate his namesake company's reputation.

Audio historians cannot make a living because the number of interested people is too small. Unless they get a job in education, of course. Are there any universities teaching audio history?

I obviously don't know Ulli. My feelings about the subject stem mostly from GS, what this thread is about. Should've known people here are a bit more balanced and a lot more intelligent than on GS. Oh, well.

Does it mean we are wrong and have to change our ways? Empathy is not an innate character; it took centuries of refining to become a natural for us privileged westerners.

Click to expand...

Of course not. We just have to accept the other's right to be different. You said it:

"je ne suis pas plus con qu'un autre".

Click to expand...

And, empathy is as old as humanity. Even animals know empathy. Why do dolphins (and other animals) rescue the young of other species sometimes?

The chinese consider they are entitled to do whatever benefits them, whatever the consequences; they are very good at justifying their bad manners when they're caught blood-handed.
Poison the food of your competitor's restaurant and invoke Lao-Tseu.

Click to expand...

Sounds also like another great nation to me. Hec, even Belgians felt like that in our colonial days in Congo. The bigger nations get, the more their leaders feel free to do as they please. And, in numbers of population, I believe the Chinese are the biggest nation on Earth.

Just like on GS, the Chinese should be allowed to go their way. After all, they've got over 5000 years of history behind them. We've only got 2000. Waging a (economical) war on them won't work.

Just as I don't like the Behringer bashing, I don't like the Russians, or commie bashing. Not that I believe in communism, or that I think the Russians can't be bastards. It's just that our governments seem to have allies that are even greater bastards, like the Saudi's that escape most criticism.

It's all about balance, in the end. I don't see too much balance on GS. Just commerce and ego.

Behringer is now selling a clone of the Minimoog Model D.  So they have not run out of things to copy.

JohnRoberts said:

His commercial success no doubt is a factor but mainly because so much of his early (actually middle) period growth was at the expense of other companies, when he took existing category killer (iconic top selling products) and retooled them to be manufactured cheaply in China. ?

Click to expand...

And many others followed. Like Harman.

He started out using contract manufacturers in China but after enough sales success was able to parley that into building his own operation in a lower cost area of China. I was not aware of his investment in education but probably accessible to employees for obvious self-serving benefit.

Click to expand...

Nope. accessible to all who pass the tests.

Phonic started out as a Yamaha contract manufacturer, before selling versions under their own brand.
===

Click to expand...

They've contracted for a lot of companies. And I don't know if they still contract for Behringer. The latest product I noticed was a Behringer ADA8200 under the Phonic brand.

The cynic in me says, Behringer ran out of products to copy... :

Click to expand...

Do you think so? Seems possible at least. My feeling is he grew tired of the company's image and genuinely wanted to do better. But I don't know the fella...

A natural progression for his business plan, as many of the small companies he copied from are no longer strong enough to design new category killers with their cash cows no longer competitive against cheaper priced Chinese made knock-offs. Another obvious factor is the existing brands he purchased with their own in house engineering teams.  Just logical they would continue doing what they were doing before.Not a Chinese thing, but true of any manufacturing operation wether across town, or on the other side of the world. Of course the time and language differences make hands off management all but impossible without boots on the ground.  Cough? Not exactly flattery (if so I should feel flattered, because Uli copied my work more than once).  In fact the Chinese take on copying is that it is "clever" if they can get away with it without negative consequences. BTW Uli is not Chinese.

Click to expand...

I know he's not Chinese  ;D

As China matures, and develops IP of their own to lose, they become a little more sensitive to IP theft. Coincidentally IP theft is a major topic in trade negotiations going on right now.  IP protection is a matter of law not culture or sentiment. China played fast and loose with IP law, when it benefitted them, that time is now running short.

Click to expand...

It's a smoke screen. Remember the Airbus emails that ended up in Boeing hands? Or, more recently, the break-in in our national telco's international hub? It's been proven that was GCHQ and from the targets one can one conclude it was industrial espionage. What's the UK's govt stance on this? F*ck you.

Most US citizens don't think about the rest of the world at all....Not to mention the cultural shift where some younger people are overly sensitive to tone. I have even seen some complain about the free advice they receive on forums like this. Makes one wonder about their future, but I'm old so what would I know?

JR 

PS: when did this turn into a Behringer bash/apologia?  Behringer has been bashed on many internet forums (not just GS) and Uli himself participated in a charm offensive on several web forums several years ago to rehabilitate his namesake company's reputation.

Click to expand...

Oh, it's not. It's imbalance. At least for me. Behringer bashing is just one of the few I feel are mildly amusing and sometimes irritating.

I find it strange that Americans don't think about other countries. Have to think about that...

cyrano said:

My feeling is he grew tired of the company's image and genuinely wanted to do better.

Click to expand...

I agree, this is also the vibe I'm getting...

Jakob E.

cyrano said:

And many others followed. Like Harman.

Click to expand...

It was unavoidable.... Mackie who invested $millions in their made in USA advertising, had to reverse themselves because the customer will not ignore 20% cheaper versions. Despite Peavey's made in USA reputation, we had no choice and I even travelled to China supporting Peavey manufacturing there.

Nope. accessible to all who pass the tests.

They've contracted for a lot of companies. And I don't know if they still contract for Behringer. The latest product I noticed was a Behringer ADA8200 under the Phonic brand.

Do you think so? Seems possible at least. My feeling is he grew tired of the company's image and genuinely wanted to do better. But I don't know the fella...

Click to expand...

Of course he is tired of the bashing, but the industry workers who were in the trenches competing against his IP abuses are dying off (or weary, like me). Today's young customers weren't even around back then, so they only know the new improved Behringer. Since his corporate behavior has actually improved for the better, and he survived (mostly) multiple legal challenges over the years, most have moved on.

I have had off list communication with him but do not know him personally (He wanted to meet with me). I got some idea about the pre-China Uli from letters he wrote Hartley back in the day (I had access to all those Peavey product related files). I see no need to dredge this up these decades later. 

I know he's not Chinese  ;D

It's a smoke screen. Remember the Airbus emails that ended up in Boeing hands? Or, more recently, the break-in in our national telco's international hub? It's been proven that was GCHQ and from the targets one can one conclude it was industrial espionage. What's the UK's govt stance on this? F*ck you.

Click to expand...

nice whataboutism.

Oh, it's not. It's imbalance. At least for me. Behringer bashing is just one of the few I feel are mildly amusing and sometimes irritating.

I find it strange that Americans don't think about other countries. Have to think about that...

Click to expand...

I find it a little strange how much europeans think they know about Americans.  ;D ;D

JR

cyrano said:

My feeling is he grew tired of the company's image and genuinely wanted to do better.

Click to expand...

"Chassez le naturel, il revient au galop" (What's bred in the bone will come out in the flesh).
In the context of the difficulties in maintaining his British operations, and presented with the opportunity to make a fast buck, he goes back to his old demons.

mjrippe said:

Behringer is now selling a clone of the Minimoog Model D.  So they have not run out of things to copy.

Click to expand...

I was going to say this - Behringer makes several "classic" synth models as well as one or two new/original designs.

And it's not just GS "bashing" Behringer, there was talk on rec.audio.pro (which has/had, on average, smarter people than GS) in the late 90s of Behringer copying others' designs and intellectual property.

JohnRoberts said:

Most US citizens don't think about the rest of the world at all....

Click to expand...

JohnRoberts said:

I find it a little strange how much europeans think they know about Americans.  ;D ;D

Click to expand...

Thinking about something/someone is a difference to thinking to know something/someone. Because you mixed that up.
And often better than not to think at all ;D
The situation is asymmetric, American politics influence life and death, wealth or starvation in many parts of the world.
Unsettling thought the Americans wouldn´t think about that...

L´Andratté said:

Thinking about something/someone is a difference to thinking to know something/someone. Because you mixed that up.
And often better than not to think at all ;D
The situation is asymmetric, American politics influence life and death, wealth or starvation in many parts of the world.
Unsettling thought the Americans wouldn´t think about that...

Click to expand...

Yes it is an unsettling thought to me too...

Not to defend the situation but human nature is to worry about individual concerns first and only after satisfying them worry about others. It seems that some in the younger generation spend time inventing new things to worry about, but international relations are not even on their list..(my speculation and I expect there are a few exceptions ). 

Unless Doctor Who uses time travel to teach their version of history to the low information public few bother to learn history that can be uncomplimentary to some modern themes (like socialism). I didn't realize how preachy modern entertainment had become, it kind of crept up on me. The political talking heads criticized a recent country music awards show because they weren't political enough.  :  They apparently jumped the shark (a happy days reference) with over the top mean spirited political attacks by a snarky comedian at the correspondents dinner where it had been traditional to roast the political leaders with kind hearted humor. As that humor turned ugly they broke the audience for the show (a charity event to fund scholarships supporting journalism). Next dinner will not use an invited comedian, but the political climate still seems tense, so we'll see if they can rehabilitate the franchise. 

JR

I just posted in a thread on dinosaur mixers on GS about the WEM mixer used in the Elton John advert.  The last sentence of my post was "Turns out it is a WEM"

I got a very odd reply from a moderator who said "Turns out not everyone in the interwebs is an expert. Whoda thunk?!"

If it had been anyone other than a moderator I would not have given it a second thought.

Cheers

ian

ruffrecords said:

I just posted in a thread on dinosaur mixers on GS about the WEM mixer used in the Elton John advert.  The last sentence of my post was "Turns out it is a WEM"

I got a very odd reply from a moderator who said "Turns out not everyone in the interwebs is an expert. Whoda thunk?!"

If it had been anyone other than a moderator I would not have given it a second thought.

Cheers

ian

Click to expand...

Why do you keep on going there? Trying to educate Philistines just hurts you.
I go (very seldom) to GS when looking for some info they may have; most of the times I get out of it disgusted. I'm not a member anymore so I don't get tempted to answer.

can't do this... Whoda thunk?

abbey road d enfer said:

Why do you keep on going there? Trying to educate Philistines just hurts you.
I go (very seldom) to GS when looking for some info they may have; most of the times I get out of it disgusted. I'm not a member anymore so I don't get tempted to answer.

Click to expand...

Don't know. There is just so must myth and disinformation there. There are a few hearty souls  who try to educate the masses there and I try to do the same. But you are right it is a thankless task.

Cheers

Ian

peterc said:

David was a bit of a character.  He made friends with the chief of police in Mauritius and when he went bankrupt here, he stole a yacht in Durban and sailed it to Mauritius, where he sold it and split the money with the chief to avoid charges.

Click to expand...

If that's true, that's insane.

..and lovely as well...... ;D