MCI cross-coupled output

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user 37518

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I like the idea of MCI's cross-coupled circuit as a balanced driver, however positive feedback can do more harm than good, has anyone had any experience implementing these circuit topologies? is it hard to make it work without any problems like temp compensation and so on? or is it more trouble than just using the good old buffer plus inverting amplifier to balance the stage? I know that in the latter you cant (or shouldnt) short to ground the cold output.
 
I'm not sure what the MCI looks like exactly, but at Peavey I used beaucoup active balanced with the cross connected negative feedback output stages using two decent op amps and precision resistors (note: this was before the IC makers offered cost effective off the shelf canned solutions.)

The topology was pretty tolerant of customer interconnection misbehavior.  The simpler "just differential" output gets unhappy when random outputs are shorted to ground. Only weirdness with active balanced (cross connected) is a single floating open output lines can interact with stray capacitance and give unexpected frequency response.

These days you can just buy IC canned solutions with superior performance.

JR
 
Dear John this is the circuit im refering to, is it similar to the one you described?

n124fig5.gif
 
Yes, but IIRC there may be a few more parts involved, but that's the basic concept.

If one leg gets shorted the other leg increases to keep the output the same.

JR
 
user 37518 said:
I like the idea of MCI's cross-coupled circuit as a balanced driver, however positive feedback can do more harm than good, has anyone had any experience implementing these circuit topologies? is it hard to make it work without any problems like temp compensation and so on? or is it more trouble than just using the good old buffer plus inverting amplifier to balance the stage? I know that in the latter you cant (or shouldnt) short to ground the cold output.

It was discussed recently here:
https://groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=69999.msg892957#msg892957

Soundcraft used cross-coupled output stage in many consoles without problems as I know.

 

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Yup closer, but I don't recall using an output trim, we did use precision resistors (at Peavey).

JR

[edit ] OK attached a schematic of one output from my last big console, last century.. [/edit]
 

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Yeap, both look very similar to the one I posted, did you ever have any problems with it John? according to this article on Rane, https://www.rane.com/note124.html many audio manufacturers didnt use it because it was too much trouble to make it work properly in large production runs.
 
No problems as far as I remember...  That said I recall problems from sundry other interface choices...

In one case a TRS input with one leg open circut, would lose signal if single legged input with wrong polarity plugged up (not my product but at Peavey).

Hard differential outputs could cause issues with one leg shorted as often happens (many TRS plugged into TS short ring to sleeve, dumping that much current into shield grounds can raise crosstalk issues and distortion).

When Peavey revisited their decades earlier legacy decision about XLR polarity and changed from pin 3 hot to pin 2 hot, there was much drama and hand wringing from customers. Products with balanced in/out do not have a hot polarity at all. I even had at least one customer proudly share that he made a polarity swap cable, that in fact made his polarity wrong.  :eek: :eek:

JR

PS: I mentioned the several extra parts and use of precision resistors... In my experience less problems than other topologies when you need (want) the extra 6dB output for data sheet specsmanship.  Maybe Rane didn't put in the extra bench time, the bare bones schematic is not complete.
 
Are you looking to specifically roll your own? There are ICs that will do this. THAT1646 is advertised as tolerant to shorts on one leg.
 
user 37518 said:
Yeap, both look very similar to the one I posted, did you ever have any problems with it John? according to this article on Rane, https://www.rane.com/note124.html many audio manufacturers didnt use it because it was too much trouble to make it work properly in large production runs.
This circuit originated from Hewlett-Packard for the 8903 audio test set. If it was problematic, they wouldn't have used it.
Indeed, there were issues when resistors were not properly matched.
Thousands of them in MCI mixers proved enough the validity.
 
JohnRoberts said:
I don't recall using an output trim, we did use precision resistors (at Peavey).
The reason why there was a trim on Soundcraft's EBOS was that some early reviewers had noticed the signal was not identical in both legs, implicating the outputs were not truly balanced!
In fact, after trimming for equal levels, the impedance unbalance between legs was often even worse! But actual CMRR was not part of the final test prodedure, only zeroing the summed output legs via two 10k resistors.
 
abbey road d enfer said:
The reason why there was a trim on Soundcraft's EBOS was that some early reviewers had noticed the signal was not identical in both legs, implicating the outputs were not truly balanced!
In fact, after trimming for equal levels, the impedance unbalance between legs was often even worse! But actual CMRR was not part of the final test prodedure, only zeroing the summed output legs via two 10k resistors.
Yes a mostly cosmetic issue that doesn't harm operational functionality.  I recall seeing the trim on a highly regarded studio parametric EQ but thought (guessed) it was a tweak for CMRR not level match...

Since we can't control the impedance balance of the loads we see, you get what you get. Providing a static (moderate impedance) fixed termination helps apparent mismatches when driving high impedance terminations.  I didn't do the bench work on this for Peavey, it was already a working circuit block when I got there, so I just used it as is (a benefit of working with other competent engineers).  I saw the occasional level mismatch between output legs on the bench but just ignored it.  I didn't ask who inspired them...

=====
I've told this story before but not recently... when the sundry IC manufacturers would bring their FAEs (field application engineers) to Meridian for a dog and pony show to pitch their new or soon to be new chips to win design-ins, they would ask us what we wanted (pretending to actually care  ::) ). I still recall my wish list feature set for a universal output driver chip, some still unfulfilled, that I submitted to them for multiple years before they released their final parts.

#1 quiet turn on-off without pops and thumps...  a lot of product design effort goes into this, especially for live sound reinforcement where thousands of watts can be banging speakers with those on/off transient events.  Generally the noise bothers the customers more than damages speakers but keeping customers happy is important.

#2 ability to run driver output stage from hotter unregulated rails. More output is always better, so swinging to unregulated rails could buy a few extra volts of signal swing.

#3 voltage gain... no need for more signal swing if signal is already voltage limited by the path coming from the regulated rail powered circuitry, so at least a few dB of voltage gain on top of the +6dB gained from using two active outputs.

Thats all.... but the engineers were pretty much pimping their already finished silicon, not listening to me for things to change.  :mad: (In hindsight they were application engineers not chip design engineers, but then why ask?)

Back then without some compelling feature-benefit upgrade I was not motivated to pay more for a function we had already covered successfully for years.

JR

Caveat... I have not looked seriously at the modern offering of output driver ICs so can't say how current parts rate against my decades old wish list. They have hopefully gotten cheaper as more people use them in new designs.
 
 
That's a monster thread from Wayne. Thanks.

The circuit I posted  was from a Cadac remote controlled microphone  amp from '96.  with 16x 2SB737's and OptoFets for gain control. A bit over the top.
 
abbey road d enfer said:
I used a very similar structure in an audio test set in 1978. I found it was prone to oscillation and unstability.
The Porter schematic uses too many op amps and too many trims IMO... but AFAIK it was an early example of the topology. 

Wayne explores some more history about the topology. I defer to his documentation.

JR
 
JohnRoberts said:
Yes, but IIRC there may be a few more parts involved, but that's the basic concept.

If one leg gets shorted the other leg increases to keep the output the same.

JR

And headroom drops by 6dB.

Cheers

Ian
 

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