1073/1084 PCB Debug

[tommypiper]

My point was there are public photos of REAL UNITS and REAL BOARDS. Not "public domain boards."

If what you are after is to understand how the original boards are laid out, that's all you need. A bleepin' photo. And you can get that easily, by a number of means, as mentioned.

No, I don't have any boards. But I know at least one studio in town who has l073s. Studio owners and engineers are not the enemy. Just start talking to them. They all love their N gear and are often happy to share info if they have free time. Otherwise, time can be bought. :grin:

You either want to sort it out or you don't.

I'm confused. What about Audioforge's boards? He says they are fine. Why don't you go from his?

I'm also confused what you are trying to accomplish that is different from his project?

 

[maxwall]

I want to write this without being harsh so here goes.

let me clear up one thing first, this is DIY I'm not paying some one $35-50 and hour at some studio to look at some Neve boards and snap some photos- I don't have that kind of dough. I have friends who can get me connected when I push hard enough. But I'm not there yet.

"My point was there are public photos of REAL UNITS and REAL BOARDS. Not "public domain boards."

Where , Chris vallejo's photos or some other ? send the link ?

"No, I don't have any boards. But I know at least one studio in town who has l073s. Studio owners and engineers are not the enemy. Just start talking to them. They all love their N gear and are often happy to share info if they have free time. Otherwise, time can be bought."

Yes they love their gear and happy to share the love as long as the love is coming from my wallet.
Whats the studios name ? I'll contact them to see if they really have free time. Please provide more info.
Also Just got off the phone with Marquette Audio in Hayward , CA and he was'nt thrilled about the idea of allowing me the opportunity and he did not have a module either. He did'nt know of a studio in the area who would allow me the favor unless they actually knew me. This is not the end of my search there are many more possiblilites I have not looked into yet.

Tommypiper your giving me information I could probably figure out on my own but none that is helping me or the forum members who are reading this. I dont mind the discussion and discourse as long as it is positive and productive. I'm a really nice person , seriously. Ask anyone here on this forum. This thread is designed to get down to the facts and answers not antagonistic rhetoric and animosity. Why not just contribute useful tangible information. This is the whole point of this thread - Taking , incomplete, incorrect, ambiguous or puzzling info and turning it useful info. I don't have all the answers, but I'm willing to work hard with others to make it worthwhile for the forum and members. We can all benefit from this, its just time consuming.

"I'm confused. What about Audioforge's boards? He says they are fine. Why don't you go from his?

I'm also confused what you are trying to accomplish that is different from his project?"

Talk to Pierre, ( Audioforge )about his boards, its not my place to comment on the accuracy of his work. All I can tell you is he is making a honest effort to bring good boards to the members. And this thread is in no way intended to compete , contradict or take credit for Pierre's committment to the project. I have already discussed this with him and we are in agreement.

Read thru my postings and you will see what I'm trying to accomplish. Its pretty clear. As I'm taking ambiguities and trying to make sense out of them. Do you know which BA211 schematic to use in the 1073 or the 1084 project , there are three of them above. Which revision is correct which revision has the bugs worked out ? Neve does'nt disclose this info so I'm trying to get down to the facts on this. There may be more revisions of the B211 I have not seen yet or have not been released as public domain schematics. There is more to come, I've only started.

If you have specific questions about the schem's I posted I will be happy to explain it, that is if I have made it more confusing.

 

[tommypiper]

Sorry, I don't think you understand me. I'm trying to help. I'm offering suggestions too. If you think they are obvious, I apologize, but the direction of inquiry appeared to be begging in that direction.

:grin:

I don't know why you mention the Chris boards. Who's talking about those? Not me. There are numerous, detailed photos of original modules, undressed, out there. Wouldn't they be useful? Just trying to help.

If ~$25 is over your research budget, then I sympathize. I wish I had a unit so I could help you, but I don't.

I'm trying to suggest that in addition to your schematic research you also pursue the hands-on (and photo) examination of an original, working unit -- if your goal is to understand it compared to uncertain documentation, and independent of Audioforge's information. You need to find a baseline to reference and troubleshoot your documentation from.

Otherwise, it would be more fun and maybe more productive to just design your own circuit at this point. It's DIY.

Good luck.

 

[audioforge]

I will try to be pragmatic.
As maxwall i wanted to build a 1073 since a long time as .i ve build a 1072 preamp i m so pleased with. but transfos and inductors were unavalaible at a fair price...then came the in out line tx first groupbuy i missed then the second from sender .as he didn t want to add the 1073/84 inductors to his gbuy i ve contact carhnill and do it. (and happilly now audiomaintenance offer them).once thoses hard to find componants were avalaible there was no problem to diy a 1073/84......
Here come the boards..when i started the inductors gbuy i engage myself to do the pcbs.i was thinking that it was possible to etch them at home but many people wanted the original design with the golden plated edgeconnectors. that mean the pcbs must have golden plated edgeconnectors pads too, to avoid electrical and chemichal troubles in the long run....... so a professionally made from a factory was necessary....and here come the actual pcbs groupbuy.....
I ve worked with the schematics avalaible and pics i ve collected since one year,mostly from ebay everytime i saw an opened 1073 or 1084.
comparing schematics with pics and chriss valejo designs...
i ve corrected errors.and try to make everyone happy with the ability of no edgeconnectors ,holes to mount the cards ,various components sizes etc etc......
there 2 distinct problems .
the boards and the wiring between the boards.
The boards: i beleave my boards ok.
i ve sent the files to Kubi as he offer to seriously check them one week ago.
i still wait for his report. i ve sent the file to maxwall as soon he asked me to check the traces too.i wait for his report.
i LIKE the way frank (maxwall) study the 1073/84 project.I ve done the same and his interogations about some details are MINE too.
only 2 boards have some confusing infos relative to the schematics source.
the 182 and the now famous ba211 with 3 different schematics.
the Ba211:
there is a resistor(R5 220k) on some bords and not on others.
I HAVE PICS of a 211 pcb with that resistors placed exactly as show on the amsneve manual. problem: it s in a 1073 and not in a 1084.
and i have pics of 1084 without this resistor but schematics for 1084 seems to indicate she must be there....
IS that so important to do the pcbs?
NO!!!!! the necessary pad holes for this resistor have been implanted ,so, if needed you put it if not needed leave the pads unstuffed.
BUT we need to know why some units have and some don t.
I repeat it again the boards are not the main problem as long as they are conform to the original design..
2: the wiring:
that will be the main problem.
2 soluces. people with experienced 1073/84 knowledge join us .
or we have to experiment.and progressively we ll build the unit we will find the soluces
.it was like that when the 1176 or the la2a project started.
soluces have been found and it will be the same for this project.
I have access to a good benchmark and have a friend very "electronic" experienced who will help me to to debug the building.
Of course i will share and post all the infos about the wiring as soon i ll begin the building to help all of you.and will post pics relative to that.
BUT IF YOU HAVE ACCESS TO REAL UNITS please take pics! and share your infos.post them here (pics or link to..)or contact maxwall or me.that will save time and efforts for all of us.
be confident but be active too.....
Do It Ourselves
audioforge

 

[audioforge]

thanks a lot drpat for your pics.
your pics confirm my observations. your ba211 is the classic one i ve seen on most units. included the 1084. i will post this weekend the ba211 with the R5 on it. the pic is not as good as yours but it show clearly the R5 .should the ba211A version.
audioforge

 

[audioforge]

here the ba211a pics i have. you can see the R5 as indicated on the amsneve1073/84 manual. R5 pad holes have been implanted at this place on my boards . thoses pics came from a 1073 unit........
audioforge
http://twin-x.com/groupdiy/displayimage.php?pos=-1805

http://twin-x.com/groupdiy/displayimage.php?pos=-1804

 

[codered]

[quote author="maxwall"]Codered

thanks for dropping by this thread. I see you have some useful information as you have demonstrated. I hope we can have you here to contribute to the success of this whole effort of degugging or de-mystifying some of these old Neve board layouts. I think you will agree that information from one person to the next can get skewed affecting the final outcome. So now you can see why I'm trying to finally tie it all together here on this thread.

Unless you own on of these modules one can only speculate rev changes and diffferences that exist between schematics and actual units. But , the last thing I want to do is speculate a design for a project so Its going to take a collaboration of knowledgable DIY people to bring it to where it should be. This way were not wasting time building crappy audio boxes on this forum.[/quote]
Hi Maxwall,
It will definitely be good to put all our brains together.I am studying audioforge's boards and I'll post if I've found something.Good job on taking the initiative!

 

[codered]

http://twin-x.com/groupdiy/displayimage.php?pos=-1807

 

[audioforge]

thanks codered
the boards uploaded on twinx are not the finalized ones.I ve done them before receive the carhnill inductors. so everything regarding the inductors pads holes have been corrected.
The edgepads connectors traces are 3mm width on the finalized boards.
I will "round" a bit the traces for c7. even it s not a problem with boards manufactured professionally from a pcb factory.
btw all traces are 1.6mm and 2mm width
waiting for your others "pcbs checking" .
audioforge

 

[codered]

In the BA 284 board there is an error in C7,c8 and R8.You have C7 & C8 positive terminals connected ..that is not right I think per the schematics.

 

[codered]

BA182C board: Everything seems correct except the inductor..but them you might have corrected it already as I am not looking at the latest version.

BA283: I'm sure many eyes have gone through that already

 

[audioforge]

codered . the silkscreen capa c7 can t be rotate on my pcb design soft. so forget the white capa design . + are rectangular pad . c7 negative go to the hole uppon the white labelled r12.
all those capa resistors etc silkscreen layout have been removed for the finalized designs. and replaced by + for positive caps pad holes. transistors :e b c...
i send you a pm for you to check the finalized layout.
it should not take more than one hour to check all the 6 pcbs.
audioforge

 

[audioforge]

Codered files sent....
Kubi : thanks for your pcbs checking.if you found something i could do to make them more "elegant" or better loocking please post your advices asap as i don t think i will send the gerbers to the factory before the end of this week. i have to finalize the groupbuy listing and contact all the Gbuy members then have a definitive quote from the factory... well all the work i hate....
audioforge

 

[maxwall]

Great , I'm happy to the everyone working together on this. Good things are happening now.

Kubi , yes thats correct about " U " trace.

Audiforge has done his homework well , I see.

I' m little busy at the moment , I wish I had more time to jump in but it seems replies to this thread happen when I'm not online. So I'll do what I can. I'm still checking layouts, but my eye's are getting sore. Better to take a break and get back to trace checking with fresh eye's.

 

[audioforge]

another example of a ba211a in a 31102 module.see the pic at the bottom of the page and zoom.....
http://www.acoustilog.com/neve_31102.html
you will see the enlarged trace between the 2 Oh of the inductors and the solder "plots?" for the R5......
audioforge

 

[ioaudio]

i tried to sum up info about the eq cards and it´s inductors as used in the 1073 and 1084 .

1073 inductors

card:       inductor:

Ba182/C        t1295

Ba205          -

Ba211          t1530 + t1280 no tabs

--------------------------------------------------

1084

card:       inductor:

Ba182/A        t1295

Ba205          -

Ba211          t1530 + t1280 no tabs

Ba194          t1280 with tabs

the tapped t1280 will only be used in the ba194 for the 1084.
click on pic for high res

 

[ioaudio]

sowters inductors
http://www.sowter.co.uk/eqinductors.htm

 

[codered]

I finished checking the boards -audioforge has done a great job & definitely put a lot of thought.I have emailed audioforge my feedback on some things on the boards.

Summary:
1.The boards as-is will not fit the neeb case even with the trimming we talked about. Two of the boards will interfere with the Elna switch.I dont know how we are going forward on this becuase 2 of the boards will have to be modified for the reduced length. I dont know how everyone feels but personally I feel that the board should be Neeb compatible (with edge trimming).Those who dont want to use it in the case can just use as-is

2. If the pcbs are pre-cut for the cinch then the cut line is passing through the mounting hole.I've taken dimensions from the cinch recommendation + tolerance(1mm). The mtg. holes need to move

3.There are quite a few sharp corners.While I havent experienced the ill-effects of the sharp corners I think it is good idea to fillet all the sharp corners and be safe

With so many folks buying the cinch option I feel they would like a Neeb case compatible board.I am also going by the interest in the TT cases..

thats all from me :guinness:

 

[maxwall]

Well put Codered, I too would like to see the boards very close to original size so they could be fit into a original Neve cassette case. Board sizing may be important for some but not all.

Secondly if the boards are close to original sizing then the traces and pads which some consider part of the sound would be addressed properly as well. Hope this is part of the board design because the PCB images I received don't tell me exactly what size the boards will be since the PCB program can scale the layout infinitley.

Audioforge, will the PCB boards be close in size to the original ?

Does any one have the original board dimensions of the set so they can be posted here and compared ?

The original Ne' BA283AV board is 90mm x 60mm not including the cutouts at each corner where the board meets the edge connector.

 

[audioforge]

thanks kubi maxwall and codered for the pcbs checking.
i m happy that you do not found any traces errors.
all boards are 100mm x 80 mm.
traces layouts are very very close to the originals.
keep in mind i ve to put four 3mm diameter holes at the same positions on all the boards for thoses who don t want edgeconnectors.
i will do my best for the very few people who want put the boards in an "original case".
i need to know the size of the 182c and the ba205 (80mm minus x? mm)
so the elma input attenuator don t hit.i will move the traces but you will have to cut/trim the boards.
To offer the pcbs at a bargain 6euros approx price ,they will not be precut regarding the edgeconnector. I will cut them by request and test individually into an edgeconnector (both edac and cinch trade mark).
no soldermask too ,since all traces and edgeconnectors will be goldplated.
(btw the originals and the ams or b.averill ones don t have soldermask too).
i allready redesign the traces to avoid sharpcorners and add 2mm to the edgeconnectors traces(now 12mm instead of 10mm)
btw does someone know the diameter of the mustard capas (160v serie)
for the ba205???.
any infos about original boards sizes and exact mustards footprint and diameter welcome.
i need to give 4 gerbers per boards to the factory and check them before email them the files .i can wait till monday. there is one month lead time for the pcbs to be done..................
audioforge